Russian National Team for 2015-16

Abraxis12345 said:

First off, the SD was a set rhythm and they were very fortunate to work with someone whose specialty is mainly spanish style choreography and that the rhythm and the spanish style just so happened to suit them. With the FD, they didn't want to do dramatic so they had to go in a different direction. Elena herself said it took them forever to find the music that everyone thought would work, so it wasn't merely Averbukh sitting on his thumbs but 6 people who had no clue what would suit the couple. Second, Christopher Dean was one of Gilles and Donahue's coaches and had also choreographed Crone and Poirier's last free dance, so he had a better idea of what would work with them as opposed to Averbukh working with someone (Ilinykh) whom he last worked with when that person was 11. Third, Julia Andreeva, an ISU judge and a friend of Kustarova's (so she isn't actively out to sabotage IZ) said there was a huge improvement in IZ's skating between the test skates and the Grand Prix. What Averbukh gave them was what they could skate at the time and apparently, even that might have seemed challenging at the time.

And finally, I seem to recall you accusing Averbukh of sabotaging IZ, saying that he purposely gave them a bad free dance.

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I did in the beginning because of his initial reactions to the formulations of the new pairs. But now after looking at things a full year after and the added info from uhh, it doesn't seem quite that simplistic. I/Z were moderated by a group of Russian specialists. No matter what Averbuch gave I/Z they had the final say, not so?

But more importantly, the current state of Russian ice dance is more a reflection of their federation and their leadership (or the lack thereof) style. They need to radically come forward to the 21 st century because they seem to be trapped in a 90's time warp.

bramweld said:

This man has more than a point but, the fed needs to take a look in the mirror at its own actions. How was Averbuch allowed to compose so simplistic a program for I/Z when you consider what Najarro did for the same couple with only three days. Further consider the beautiful Sweet Dreams FD created for Piper Gilles and Paul Poirier for their own debut a few years ago. If the Russian Fed were invested in this couple or russian ice dance for that matter, they would have given them something better. I am not wanting for any special treatment for I/Z, but rather the FED to use simple common sense. For shame on their own fed! The federation is complicit in the quota for ice dance dropping from 3 to 2. All of this chatter is almost laughable.

Russian ice dance seems to be bereft of good choreographers or their choreographers don't feel compelled to work with their own skaters. Look on the beautiful EX given to the Shibs by Peter T. last season. I can only imagine how beautiful their Coldplay FD will be this year. Their dancers may also be discouraged by the lack of good choreography coming their way. While I am sure their dancers are partly to blame for the current state of ice dance the Federation needs to change something, for the status quo is not yielding the desired results. Russian ice dance is too shrouded in politics and personal agendas, it needs more objectivity and transparency.

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I think the skaters have autonomy in choosing their choreographers so the Federation is not to blame for the poor programs of some of the Russian couples. I doubt that if any of them would want to work with Peter T. for example, would be refused. It's the same situation with coaches. Probably it's easier for the Russian couples to stay in Moscow where they have better conditions and it's more comfortable than to move to US to be coached by Angelika or Igor.

madison said:

I think the skaters have autonomy in choosing their choreographers so the Federation is not to blame for the poor programs of some of the Russian couples. I doubt that if any of them would want to work with Peter T. for example, would be refused. It's the same situation with coaches. Probably it's easier for the Russian couples to stay in Moscow where they have better conditions and it's more comfortable than to move to US to be coached by Angelika or Igor.

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True, but who are the really great choreographers in Russia, having great experience in ice dance that they can draw on? They are very few with limited availability. This is one area where the federation needs to get ahead of the game.

Now, I`m worried what the Russian experts are going to do with I/Z`s programs. I don`t think the future of Russian Ice Dance looks that bleak. They are just in the unfortunate situation that most couples are very young or just started skating together. I think for someone as Karponosov it`s tough to see what Russian ice dance is now to compared what it used to be when he skated. Ice Dance used to be a discipline the Russian dominated and now they can barely win a bronze at Euros. I agree that they all need more modern programs. I`ve high hopes for I/Z`s programs in that regard.

madison said:

I think the skaters have autonomy in choosing their choreographers so the Federation is not to blame for the poor programs of some of the Russian couples. I doubt that if any of them would want to work with Peter T. for example, would be refused. It's the same situation with coaches. Probably it's easier for the Russian couples to stay in Moscow where they have better conditions and it's more comfortable than to move to US to be coached by Angelika or Igor.

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I don't think it's a question of who they work with, it's that the choreography doesn't always survive the meddling hands of coaches & then the federation officials. How many seasons has Liza gone to work with Lambiel & then two weeks later there's an interview with Mishin saying it was good, but they need to make some changes, work things out with their own team etc etc, and then she shows up on the GP with the usual stroking between elements & occasional arm flourish. Or the example of B/S in the Olympic season, when they had what was originally quite a strong program, put together well by Zhulin, which was following on from a well received FD the previous year - and then after test skates, they are told to change this & that, and eventually to just overlay the tinkered choreo to Vivaldi & Mozart, so you had two pieces that have nothing to do with each other, and choreography that originally wasn't intended to go with either of them. And that all came from the "experts" who now say that the Russian dance program isn't good enough, they need better choreo blah blah blah. The one set of programs from a Russian team that has been really truly successful in recent years was I/K's Olympic programs, and you know what, they showed up at test skates with the same version that they skated in Sochi - it says to me that the federation officials or advisers like TAT need to let their coaches do their work with less interference because they are not adding anything creatively to what their skaters put out on the ice.

ETA: Maybe it would also help if the choreographers stood up a little bit more for their work. I remember Philip Mills getting annoyed that Ashley's team changed her Black Swan choreo - conversely we hear nothing from choreographers in Russia when their work is tinkered with. Obviously I don't know what went on behind the scenes or the reason for the post test skate changes, but it would have been nice if Averbukh had been able to preserve more of his original work for I/Z because it was a fairly decent, intricate program.

uhh said:

I don't think it's a question of who they work with, it's that the choreography doesn't always survive the meddling hands of coaches & then the federation officials. How many seasons has Liza gone to work with Lambiel & then two weeks later there's an interview with Mishin saying it was good, but they need to make some changes, work things out with their own team etc etc, and then she shows up on the GP with the usual stroking between elements & occasional arm flourish. Or the example of B/S in the Olympic season, when they had what was originally quite a strong program, put together well by Zhulin, which was following on from a well received FD the previous year - and then after test skates, they are told to change this & that, and eventually to just overlay the tinkered choreo to Vivaldi & Mozart, so you had two pieces that have nothing to do with each other, and choreography that originally wasn't intended to go with either of them. And that all came from the "experts" who now say that the Russian dance program isn't good enough, they need better choreo blah blah blah. The one set of programs from a Russian team that has been really truly successful in recent years was I/K's Olympic programs, and you know what, they showed up at test skates with the same version that they skated in Sochi - it says to me that the federation officials or advisers like TAT need to let their coaches do their work with less interference because they are not adding anything creatively to what their skaters put out on the ice.

ETA: Maybe it would also help if the choreographers stood up a little bit more for their work. I remember Philip Mills getting annoyed that Ashley's team changed her Black Swan choreo - conversely we hear nothing from choreographers in Russia when their work is tinkered with. Obviously I don't know what went on behind the scenes or the reason for the post test skate changes, but it would have been nice if Averbukh had been able to preserve more of his original work for I/Z because it was a fairly decent, intricate program.

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If you are ever able to please send me links to those training clips. Based on Kustarova's first interviews I thought they had a more intricate program. Did P/C and their team really need to show Russia that interesting details make a program more appealing? To me its their own officials/experts that need to be re-trained.

As for Averbuch maybe he has to sign over all rights to the final version of the choreography at the end of the day. Go figure..

uhh said:

And that all came from the "experts" who now say that the Russian dance program isn't good enough, they need better choreo blah blah blah. The one set of programs from a Russian team that has been really truly successful in recent years was I/K's Olympic programs, and you know what, they showed up at test skates with the same version that they skated in Sochi - it says to me that the federation officials or advisers like TAT need to let their coaches do their work with less interference because they are not adding anything creatively to what their skaters put out on the ice.

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To be fair, Karponosov wasn't there for the Birds debacle ( Shekhovtseva is another story...). He only took the job last fall and from the start, he has been critical of the training practices of all the groups. His complaints have been there even before B/S realized they'd miss the year and before they knew they'd lose a spot at Worlds.

I do think however, that, with the exception of Ladies, all the Russian disciplines have problems. The men all seem to be stuck in the 6.0 era and the pairs seem to be losing the arms race to the Canadians and Chinese

Honestly, I kind of feel like the Fed is overreacting. They sent two teams who had never been to Worlds and another team who hadn't even been together a year and had them all place in the top 10. They'll almost certainly get three spots back next season, and most of their teams will probably make great strides over the quad. Calling I/Z a failed experiment is silly. They need to have some patience and focus on 2018.

Additionally, I never got the hate for I/Z's FD. I thought the Apassionata part was lovely, I just felt like the version of Anthony and Cleopatra they used weighed the whole piece down. Honestly, they probably watered it down to make it easier for them to skate, they were a new team. I thought it was a bad idea to make so many changes for worlds, when the FD was already scoring well.

I don't think Karponosov's reaction is to worlds. What he said, he's been saying from the very beginning.

bramweld said:

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If you are ever able to please send me links to those training clips. Based on Kustarova's first interviews I thought they had a more intricate program. Did P/C and their team really need to show Russia that interesting details make a program more appealing? To me its their own officials/experts that need to be re-trained.

As for Averbuch maybe he has to sign over all rights to the final version of the choreography at the end of the day. Go figure..

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If it's not Averbuch's fault, it's the Federation's. Suggestions are welcome, but at the end of the day, the skaters and their coaches take the decisions what to change or not in their programs. While they are praised for their success, they have to assume their mistakes as well. This is available for I/Z as well: they chose the music, the choreographer and the changes in the program. In B/S case, i understand that the experts wanted well known music for the Olympic season, but it was a mistake to change the music and to keep the same choreo.

madison said:

If it's not Averbuch's fault, it's the Federation's. Suggestions are welcome, but at the end of the day, the skaters and their coaches take the decisions what to change or not in their programs. While they are praised for their success, they have to assume their mistakes as well. This is available for I/Z as well: they chose the music, the choreographer and the changes in the program. In B/S case, i understand that the experts wanted well known music for the Olympic season, but it was a mistake to change the music and to keep the same choreo.

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I'm calling a time out. I'm tired. This is all the Russian fed's fault though. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, for now
Oh my, just look at this. Just look at this. Where is the sense of timing. Didn't D/S give us all a template in 2009? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8wpFx9hZvIBetina Popova and partner. Help !!

Hmm, I'm not sure if Bombastic Music and Ingenue Smiles are two tastes that really go together, but hey, YMMV...