The performances of Wagner and Gold

I find them both elegant compelling and beautiful. I truly prefer them to the young Russians and Ashley is the womanly mature complete skater with an amazing push to compete technically and she did last year. I get upset seeing her not receive her due. Ashley should be on the world podium. Grace makes nerves mistakes and while she is a more elegant skater it is a jumping game. I fear Frank has not pushed her athleticism. Maybe she needs to worry about the jumps. The girls beating her have only that. Will Grace break through the nerves or end up a Mirai Nagasu 4th place girl at the next Olympics.

What do you all think of Ashley chances with her same LP moulin rouge ? Good strategy or bad? I so want to see these two with world medals this year. No one left performs like Ashley can. The exit of Mao Akiko and esp Caro have left her as the best woman in terms of a cohesive moving performance imho. I hope this is the year she wins worlds. I believe in her. Am I alone?

skateluvr said:

I find them both elegant compelling and beautiful. I truly prefer them to the young Russians and Ashley is the womanly mature complete skater with an amazing push to compete technically and she did last year. I get upset seeing her not receive her due. Ashley should be on the world podium. Grace makes nerves mistakes and while she is a more elegant skater it is a jumping game. I fear Frank has not pushed her athleticism. Maybe she needs to worry about the jumps. The girls beating her have only that. Will Grace break through the nerves or end up a Mirai Nagasu 4th place girl at the next Olympics.

What do you all think of Ashley chances with her same LP moulin rouge ? Good strategy or bad? I so want to see these two with world medals this year. No one left performs like Ashley can. The exit of Mao Akiko and esp Caro have left her as the best woman in terms of a cohesive moving performance imho. I hope this is the year she wins worlds. I believe in her. Am I alone?

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Gracie not really my thing
But totally rooting for Ashley (specially because lovelove her moulin rouge lp). I think she has chances, she got the lp really polished this year and its amazing, so i think she stands a chance.

I hope Gracie has a totally new style in a new season. Or at least something one could call style.

I really love both ladies.

Ashley is such a 6.0 girl--i.e. she has flawed jumps that were rarely penalized under that system, not a ton of transitions, and the presence, performance, and personality on the ice that 6.0 rewarded. She would've done much better under the old system than the current one. Not that that means much now but I really love her performances when she's clean. She moves me, moreso than any other lady this past season managed to. But I'm not sure what you mean by "Ashley should be on the world podium." If you mean she should already have a world medal, I disagree. She's been outskated at Worlds every time. And I say that as a huge Ashley fan! But if you mean she has the potential to be on the world podium, then I agree, although I honestly think, with Mao back, she is no longer the best artist in the field and only has a outside shot at bronze in Boston. Then again, she was pretty good at standing up on her jumps prior to this past season. After the technical retooling of this past season, maybe she'll get somewhat more consistent? As for keeping Moulin Rouge....I'm not sure how I feel about it. I LOVE that program, but I think she's gotten the most out of it that she could and I would've preferred to see something new. But if they repackage the program enough (new costume, more transitions, tweaking the choreography) it could feel fresh.

Gracie doesn't move me emotionally like Ashley does, but I still love her. She doesn't seem to have many fans on here, and her programs really need an overhaul. Emotionally, they're pretty empty. But I think she has the best skating skills in the current field (returning Mao excepted) and when she nails the jumps she's well-rounded enough to beat everyone except the ladies with triple axels. She's got the impressive jumps, decent spins, nice skating skills, and she just needs to put it all together. I'm not ready to write her off entirely just yet and I hope Frank has strategies to improve her mental game from all of his coaching experience. I'm really eager to see what music she's skating to next season, but if it's classical again I'll :hopelessness:.

I also find it strange that international judges tend to over-reward Gracie in PCS and under-reward (at least in comparison) Ashley. I remember finding it especially glaring at WTT.

ETA: I think Gracie would be much more engaging performance-wise with an Ashley-esque program. Maybe they give her more feminine, lyrical pieces to differentiate her from Ashley, but they just aren't working. But I could see Gracie pulling off a Black Swan or a Moulin Rouge--not as well as Ashley, but better than what Gracie has now. Something fierce instead of an attempt at subtle and pretty. I think the suggestions that she skate to Taylor Swift are off the mark, however, as those songs just don't have enough impact. I love T Swift, but there's plenty of music that would work better for skating (more highs and lows in the music for different moves) that would still be fierce.

Oh dear...well you are entitled. Adelina fan perhaps?

They're both fine skaters. They will get their due when they put out clean SPs in big events. Until then, they will probably place behind the top Russian ladies because those women have to skate four (or more) very good competitions to even make the team.

skateluvr said:

Oh dear...well you are entitled. Adelina fan perhaps?

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Actually I am not, just returning a rude comment you posted about her. In case you don't think it was rude, you won't get offended, right? :think:

skateluvr said:

Oh dear...well you are entitled. Adelina fan perhaps?

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What the heck does Adelina have to do with anything?

I don't think you have to be a fan of Adelina to simply don't enjoy Gracie/Ashley. If you start off a thread with fan ramblings, just don't be surprised if others don't agree.

Edit: found the post this was based off on... still, if you start being the impolite one, then don't be surprised if people return the favor.

andromache said:

I really love both ladies.

Ashley is such a 6.0 girl--i.e. she has flawed jumps that were rarely penalized under that system, not a ton of transitions, and the presence, performance, and personality on the ice that 6.0 rewarded. She would've done much better under the old system than the current one. Not that that means much now but I really love her performances when she's clean. She moves me, moreso than any other lady this past season managed to. But I'm not sure what you mean by "Ashley should be on the world podium." If you mean she should already have a world medal, I disagree. She's been outskated at Worlds every time. And I say that as a huge Ashley fan! But if you mean she has the potential to be on the world podium, then I agree, although I honestly think, with Mao back, she is no longer the best artist in the field and only has a outside shot at bronze in Boston. Then again, she was pretty good at standing up on her jumps prior to this past season. After the technical retooling of this past season, maybe she'll get somewhat more consistent? As for keeping Moulin Rouge....I'm not sure how I feel about it. I LOVE that program, but I think she's gotten the most out of it that she could and I would've preferred to see something new. But if they repackage the program enough (new costume, more transitions, tweaking the choreography) it could feel fresh.

Gracie doesn't move me emotionally like Ashley does, but I still love her. She doesn't seem to have many fans on here, and her programs really need an overhaul. Emotionally, they're pretty empty. But I think she has the best skating skills in the current field (returning Mao excepted) and when she nails the jumps she's well-rounded enough to beat everyone except the ladies with triple axels. She's got the impressive jumps, decent spins, nice skating skills, and she just needs to put it all together. I'm not ready to write her off entirely just yet and I hope Frank has strategies to improve her mental game from all of his coaching experience. I'm really eager to see what music she's skating to next season, but if it's classical again I'll :hopelessness:.

I also find it strange that international judges tend to over-reward Gracie in PCS and under-reward (at least in comparison) Ashley. I remember finding it especially glaring at WTT.

ETA: I think Gracie would be much more engaging performance-wise with an Ashley-esque program. Maybe they give her more feminine, lyrical pieces to differentiate her from Ashley, but they just aren't working. But I could see Gracie pulling off a Black Swan or a Moulin Rouge--not as well as Ashley, but better than what Gracie has now. Something fierce instead of an attempt at subtle and pretty. I think the suggestions that she skate to Taylor Swift are off the mark, however, as those songs just don't have enough impact. I love T Swift, but there's plenty of music that would work better for skating (more highs and lows in the music for different moves) that would still be fierce.

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Well said, Andromache. I like them both--although there are other skaters I enjoy more at this point. But being a fan of someone doesn't mean you overlook their faults and ways they can improve. I think you did a nice analysis of where they're at. And I really agree with you about Gracie not skating to something classical (or TSwift for that matter).

It's unfortunate Ashley and Gracie couldn't like do some kind of morphing into 1 skater...Ashley is better at the performance aspect in selling a program and Gracie is better at the technical aspect (when she hits).

I don't care for skaters re-using programs a second consecutive year, and I don't think it's a good strategy for a World championship and its definitely bad for trying to get occassional-casual fans to more frequently watch figure skating. *Not that the last part is necessarily Ashley's concern. Hopefully if she is going to reuse her FS she'll come up with a killer SP since she won't have to learn a new FS.

I don't think Ashley has not gotten her due - on the biggest stages outside of Nationals she has been underwhelming. Unless she is going to up her technical content and be consistent with that increased difficult content, she is going to at best be a bronze medal contender with the possibility of higher if her competitors have lots of issues.

I find Ashley Wagner to be somewhat uninspiring tbh. She is definitely a good skater, a hardworker, and it was nice to see her take the US title back last year, but there's just nothing about her that really stands out as special to me. It feels like her time has simply come and gone as we waited for the next US superstar to emerge. Honestly, I just don't think that's her. Now with the field more stacked than ever, it would take an unthinkable miracle in which Liza, Mao, Elena, Gracie, the other Japanese girls, and the other Russian all make multiple, crippling mistakes for Ashley Wagner to place anywhere near the podium at Worlds. Realistically, she can hope for a bronze at best, or perhaps a small medal if a few others collapse. Her tenacity is admirable, but alas, if only the skating could have lived up to the ego...

Gracie on the other hand, she has the whole package...its just a matter of when she can actually get it together in competition. It's sad to see her let herself down over and over again, and I think it's really hurting her confidence. If/when she overcomes the in-competition nerves, I can definitely see her becoming a (multi) Worlds, or even Olympic champion.

One thing I really dislike about Gracie- in some programs, I feel as if I can see exactly when she gives up, and that she doesn't really care Maybe she's been "Frank-ized" (and I love Frank) to seem as if she doesn't care, and she really does, but it frustrates me. The judges adore Gracie- so I hate not seeing "the fight". If that's what I'm really seeing. She seems as if she has everything she needs but doesn't utilize it due to....fear? I love Ashley's fight- and yes, as a performer, she moves me, too. To see her fight for absolutely everything she can do and then some- it inspires me. While I LOVE her 'Moulin Rouge', I'm not sure about this decision to keep it. I hope they both have great seasons.

I definitely prefer Ashley to Gracie, especially after this past season. Gracie's programs were boring, in my opinion, while Ashley's were just !!!!!! amazing. Ashley is also just a better skater in terms of artistry, and even technicality, although sometimes Gracie does top her technically (though that didn't happen this season. At all). Gracie's FS was totally not right for her, she didn't seem connected to the music and looked stressed everytime she skated it while Ashley had fun with her program and actually caused my soul to leave my body at Nats.

I do love both of them, though. I can't wait to see what they bring to the table next season!

skateluvr said:

Will Grace break through the nerves or end up a Mirai Nagasu 4th place girl at the next Olympics.

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I don't know. Teaching someone how to skate is one thing. Teaching them how to conquer their nerves is another. Some people just have nerves of steel, while others don't. I hope Gracie will learn to get over her nerves and skate great at any competition. It would be great to see her finally reach her full potential.

What do you all think of Ashley chances with her same LP moulin rouge ?

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I loved Ashley's Moulin Rouge LP, but I was a bit disappointed to hear she was skating to it again, because I think she's already maxed out her potential to it with a great skate at Nationals and a decent one at Worlds. With that being said, I think Ashley has a great chance of doing well with it next season, especially if she continues to up the technical ante. Artistically, there's not much else she can do that will keep the program fresh, but her odds are still good IMO.

lilshorty said:

I loved Ashley's Moulin Rouge LP, but I was a bit disappointed to hear she was skating to it again, because I think she's already maxed out her potential to it with a great skate at Nationals and a decent one at Worlds.

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I'm surprised to hear she is keeping it (and, like you, disappointed). I didn't like the program at all initially but grew to like it. However, I definitely feel there is better music out there for her to skate to.

While I don't like that Ashley is reusing Moulin Rouge, it did give her a lot of confidence in her skating and that helped carry her throughout the season. To me it could very much be her signature piece (other than maybe Black Swan), and I understand why she wants to continue with it. As long as she re-works the choreography and maybe even the interpretation, I'm cool with her reusing it.

As far as Gold goes, she needs to completely change her persona and get away from the pageanty princess stuff. I would love to see her skate to Game of Thrones or a flamenco or jazz, or something that's very much not expected from her.

I would like to see Gracie skate on something jazzy, I found her really boring last season. Her gala programs are good

Despite my near-hatred for Jazz, I agree that it could possibly be the best fit for Gracie. -Or, maybe some other up-beat music that ISN'T Jazz?
It's such a waste that her superb skills aren't matched to the right music.

Gracie's short program in what year 2012 or 2013 when still with Ouriashev before the switch to Frank showed she could skate to quirky nuanced music with great footwork jumps the works. She is so much more talented.

And Btw it isn't rude to opine skater x has no style or styleI find so unappealing. We are all entitled to our opinions and attacking posters for opinions even put mildly is against the rues. Stating opinions and preferences is what we do all the time. It isn't appropriate to answer an opinion in a separate topic, it simply confuses the posters and is off topic and very attack oriented. Address it in the correct conversation.

Having defended free speech you are entitled to be rude and aggressive.

I think Grace and Ashley epitomize taste and it is hard to look at skaters who are jumperswith mediocre skating skills or just unattractively dressed, lousy music and Bollywood style movements win because they throw a triple axel. No offense to Russians who adore certain skaters. I just think that women's skating has few truly elegant ladies left. Ashley is not a 6.0 skater. Her programs have transitions, superior skating skills. She is a mature complete package. I don't care about perfect technical jumps as you can see. Leonova is the one Russian who skates as a woman and has developed a style even though technically she is no where near the teenage contingent. She skates with her heart and that is why I still enjoy her.

I recently read Brian Orser's view of the ladies podium 2014 and call him a 6.0 guy but he is obviously very good at the numbers game we have now in men's and ladies. He felt Caro was the winner. For my taste Caro was in another league and skated majestically. Yuna is a cop skater but her arms are so lovely, she's very complete. No wish to restart the Cold War but the North American style if you will produces skaters who have better choreo, skating skills and costumes that won't be laughed at years from now.

I find ladies skating by and large boring and repetitive except for a few women in the world. We have really lost beauty while enforcing crazy meaningless footwork and have landing edges win the whole contest. Skating is losing because the wrong things matter most. Only us die hards still watch. And Ashley has been underscored in Pcs at many Events. Gracie too. While Julia has become my favorite Russian her best skating still screamed she is a child.

I don't agree Mao is a superior artist or athlete to Grace or Ashley. She is very very inconsistent in her jumps and in performance. As for performance Samantha Cesario was fabulous. She was consistently held down and we lost her. I love Russian Ballet and much about the art and culture but with the exceptions of pairs their direction is often very unappealing for me. Obviously others feel differently. Orser basically said the podium in 2014 should be reversed and I agree.

I don't have a link to that article but it was very spot on and maybe even too generous to the winner.

You make some very impassioned points Skateluvr, but the taste that Gracie and Ashley at present epitomize is not one I like. Though here, everyone's opinions, mine, yours, and any other spectator counts about the same as we all have likes and dislikes.

But to say Mao is not a superior athlete to Gracie or Ashley is actually something that can be quantified by points and placements. Her career so far speaks for itself.
As for 'art' well, I don't like to discuss it too much as words like Organic, Genuine and Authentic pop up soon afterwards like mushrooms in a fairy circle. I'll just say that skating skills are actually observable with the naked eye in speed and edges and complexity of footwork and at the present moment, in the currently competing ladies, I haven't seen anyone do it better than Mao.

Inconsistency is something that plagues everyone, not least of all Gracie and Ashley. It is one of the main reasons they have no world medals yet. Gracie and Ashley have had the ability to get a world medal for at least 3 seasons now, but haven't. This season is the season where they have the best chance, with Worlds being held in Boston...I'm interested to see if they can keep things together in front of a home crowd. The potential is still there inside them and hasn't gone anywhere.

I'm interested in the continued progress of Ashley and Gracie but also to see who will give them a run for their money within their own country. Polina, Chen and Mariah Bell are skaters I have an eye on to step up if the top 2 falter.