Schindler's List programs

psusanne said:

Yes, I think the girl in the red coat worked just because she was a girl back then. I was surprised that it worked so well.

Click to expand...

Really? I thought it was an obvious one. Put a pretty little girl with a serious face in a red coat and no-one's going to notice that she's not hearing or feeling that music.

What Joshua attempted, connecting with the music and emotion itself, was much more difficult, and he did it very well.

karne said:

Really? I thought it was an obvious one. Put a pretty little girl with a serious face in a red coat and no-one's going to notice that she's not hearing or feeling that music.

What Joshua attempted, connecting with the music and emotion itself, was much more difficult, and he did it very well.

Click to expand...

This will sound nasty (as well as your comment), but for me Julia's performances worked exactly because of that, because she was kind of detached from the whole thing. I cannot imagine any other skater, present or past doing that piece. I was beyond astonished after seeing that performance from Skate Canada, I didn't think that she had it in her. Perfect program for her at exactly that right point in time, she had grown just enough as an artist to pull it off. She heard and felt enough, but not too much. What did the little girl know anyway?
And that reminds me of what I didn't like about Witt's SL: the red dress. What did it mean? She should have worn a grey or a black one, red was definitly the wrong decision. Destroyed that program for me.

Joshua's performances may have had the depth, but they didn't have Wylie's greatness. And you can compare Joshua's and Wylie's approaches to SL, but you cannot compare them to Julia's (or Averbukh's).

Here is a pretty cool video someone made using Julia's SC performance and scenes from the movie. I actually plucked it off of her VK page so I assume it's a video she has seen and likes.

https://youtu.be/H8DMmkEJBAg

I'm sad to admit I had never seen I/K's SL before shine posted the link. It's a wonderful performance and Elena as always stole every ounce of my attention Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:

think Julia should do SL again in a couple of years

As an exhibition yes it would be interesting to see

Click to expand...

I wouldn't even be a fan of skating again today if it weren't for Yulia's SL, but Yulia revisiting SL like Baiul kept revisiting Swan Lake is a figure skating nightmare for me. Going back to SL would be an extremely psychologically unhealthy thing to do. That icon needs to be smashed a bit lest it suffocate her.

karne said:

Really? I thought it was an obvious one. Put a pretty little girl with a serious face in a red coat and no-one's going to notice that she's not hearing or feeling that music.

What Joshua attempted, connecting with the music and emotion itself, was much more difficult, and he did it very well.

Click to expand...

I rarely agree with you, but this I agree with. I still fail to see the brilliance that almost everyone raves about in JL's Schindler's List program. Also, in general I just don't like literal programs where the skater/choreographer shoves their interpretation in your face like "here, THIS is exactly how we want you to feel about this program. And here, you are supposed to feel SAD." I tend to like more imaginative and subtle programs. I'm glad that many outside skating were touched by the program because of what it stood for, but from an artistic perspective, I think the program was really limited. And her being relatively lacking in musicality was pretty apparent in the program IMO.

It always bothered me that Yulia's tragic face became a big smile the second the music ended, as if a switch had been turned off. I felt that the entire program had been very carefully choreographed down to every gesture and facial expression, and none of it was intrinsic in Yulia herself. I sensed her lack of musicality, too, and it became very apparent the following year with her R&J program, when Ilya Averbukh was busy with other projects and Yulia was left to flesh out the basic choreography with her own interpretation. She was not up to the task and the program unraveled every time out.

chuckm said:

It always bothered me that Yulia's tragic face became a big smile the second the music ended, as if a switch had been turned off.

Click to expand...

Really, do you have an example for that? I thought that she was more than appropriately subdued after every SL performance. A little smile after a great performance in front of a cheering crowd is normal. Ever watched Katarina Witt after SL? She wore her usual beaming smile and I don't judge her for that.

psusanne said:

Really, do you have an example for that? I thought that she was more than appropriately subdued after every SL performance. A little smile after a great performance in front of a cheering crowd is normal. Ever watched Katarina Witt after SL? She wore her usual beaming smile and I don't judge her for that.

Click to expand...

psusanne, you are correct.

Chuckm, this a strange comment indeed. Haven't you ever seen a play?? Even the dead character's come back to life for the curtain call. When the program ends the character remains in the final position and actress takes the bow. It's called theater.

psusanne said:

Joshua's performances may have had the depth, but they didn't have Wylie's greatness. And you can compare Joshua's and Wylie's approaches to SL, but you cannot compare them to Julia's (or Averbukh's).

Click to expand...

Can you really compare Joshua's and Wylie's, though? Though I do agree in one respect. It is a lot easier for a lady - any lady - to skate to Schindler's List because there is a character there to connect with. For men, not so much - or at least not in a way that would not be controversial. So they are left to work with the pure music and emotion, and it is a lot more difficult.

chuckm said:

It always bothered me that Yulia's tragic face became a big smile the second the music ended, as if a switch had been turned off. I felt that the entire program had been very carefully choreographed down to every gesture and facial expression, and none of it was intrinsic in Yulia herself.

Click to expand...

The second part of the sentence I agree with, the first I don't. Yes, sometimes it is fun when a skater stays in character - the slain Gladiator lying on the Greensboro ice! - but I don't think any less of a skater who can take themselves back out of that moment after. Josh immediately switches back into happy!Joshua mode after the performance at 4CCs, and no-one can say he wasn't invested in a program that he had choreographed himself...

karne said:

Can you really compare Joshua's and Wylie's, though? Though I do agree in one respect. It is a lot easier for a lady - any lady - to skate to Schindler's List because there is a character there to connect with. For men, not so much - or at least not in a way that would not be controversial. So they are left to work with the pure music and emotion, and it is a lot more difficult.

Click to expand...

What would be controversial in portraying Schindler himself and his struggle to overcome his own indifference to the situation. It's not like it's called "girl and Red coat's list" Seriously though...although her role is of utmost importance to the story....it's very very very brief.

karne said:

Can you really compare Joshua's and Wylie's, though? Though I do agree in one respect. It is a lot easier for a lady - any lady - to skate to Schindler's List because there is a character there to connect with. For men, not so much - or at least not in a way that would not be controversial. So they are left to work with the pure music and emotion, and it is a lot more difficult.

Click to expand...

No, you cannot really compare Joshua's and Wylie's performances for various reasons. But, as I mentioned before, Joshua's program reminded me of how great Wylie's was.
I don't think that it's easier for women. When you think of Witt's program - she wore a red dress, which I found inappropriate because she didn't portray the little girl. But it would have been beyond weird if she would have tried to portray the little girl.

Sam-Skwantch said:

What would be controversial in portraying Schindler himself and his struggle to overcome his own indifference to the situation. It's not like it's called "girl and Red coat's list" Seriously though...although her role is of utmost importance to the story....it's very very very brief.

Click to expand...

Didn't IK do that? I think that Nikita portrayed Schindler and Elena portrayed a concentration camp prisoner. But I didn't read that somwhere, just my interpretation of the program.
And it was a really nice one.

Apparently I've decided to binge-watch the SL programs mentioned in this thread to compare them.

Paul Wylie's and Yulia's programs are very much about telling a story. Paul's uses several different music cuts to tell different parts of that story, and his musicality and that spread eagle are completely to die for. Yulia's has less variety in tone and music, but tells a story through costuming and portraying a character. Yulia's and Josh's programs are more meticulously choreographed than Paul's, more detailed, due to being CoP and competitive programs. Yulia's LOOKS very choreographed and rehearsed--she executes it excellently, but IMO she's not feeling the music the way that Josh does. There are choreographic movements in Yulia's program that I wish were more drawn out and emphasized to enhance it. At times, she seems to be rushing through them and it appears to be less genuine and organic.

When I watch Josh's performance, I can mute the music and still hear it in my mind because of how much the music is intrinsically a part of his movement. He's not telling much of a story like Yulia and Paul are, but his evocation of the music is the best of the best. This makes his program appear to be organic. Also, the beginning of his program is really reminiscent of Paul's which I had not noticed before!

As for Witt--it's interesting that she's playing the little girl in red coat alive and all grown up (at least according to this version of the performance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJL7cACwNdY). I like the program, but I'm not sure if it's anything SUPER special. It's very different from the ones above because the emphasis is on life rather than death.

Elena and Nikita's was choreographically very nice, and the concept (if Nikita was playing Schindler and Elena was playing a prisoner) isn't TERRIBLE. But it's hard to watch ice dance and not think "two people in love!!" which made it a bit off-putting for me personally.

To sum up: Josh still has my favorite SL program because his musical interpretation and attention to nuance is truly unmatched and I miss seeing spread eagles like Paul Wylie's. YMMV.

chuckm said:

It always bothered me that Yulia's tragic face became a big smile the second the music ended, as if a switch had been turned off. I felt that the entire program had been very carefully choreographed down to every gesture and facial expression, and none of it was intrinsic in Yulia herself. I sensed her lack of musicality.

Click to expand...

That switch would be that she stopped performing - which is what every other performer does with very rare exceptions. Watch BTS videos of movies/TV shows dealing with tough subjects. And Schindler's List is music that to me, needs to be subtly done - its heavy music (largely because the majority of the population relates it to the movie and the Holocaust) and if the performance is not done subtly it would become an overly corny/dramatic which reads very fake and almost like the performer is making a mockery of what they are portraying which would be very tacky.

chuckm said:

I sensed her lack of musicality, too, and it became very apparent the following year with her R&J program, when Ilya Averbukh was busy with other projects and Yulia was left to flesh out the basic choreography with her own interpretation. She was not up to the task and the program unraveled every time out.

Click to expand...

Gee the program unraveled because of lack of fleshing out, not because it was FS #3, boot problems, jump problems, puberty, and an exhausted skater before the season even began?

mrrice said:

Chuckm, this a strange comment indeed. Haven't you ever seen a play?? Even the dead character's come back to life for the curtain call. When the program ends the character remains in the final position and actress takes the bow. It's called theater.

Click to expand...

I have performed in plays. When a scene calls for a very profound emotion like great sorrow, anger or shock, it is not that easy to dispel that mood and come immediately back to one's everyday persona. Even at curtain call, the actor has a moment or two to collect him/herself before taking a bow.

Did I miss it, or has no one mentioned Savchenko & Szolkowy's free skate in 2009? I always wished they had kept it for the Olympic season. They were so close to hitting in 2009, but they didn't skate it perfectly at Worlds. And Schindler's was such a powerful choice for a team from Germany.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Yeah...I think bringing a warhorse/classic to a close should be a more respected thing in skating. In skateboarding/snowboarding it's called shutting down a spot.

Honestly I liked Josh's SL too but due to circumstances, injuries and his ability to overtake the top men's skaters with it just wasn't a factor that worked in his favor especially in the year of Sochi.

Julia was fortunate to have been able to capitalize when she did. I think people really thought she could medal at Sochi and even be able to take gold if others faulterd. It wouldn't have been as out of left field as the outcome eventually became. IMO...that's saying something.

Honestly I feel Bolero was shut down by Torvill and Dean and people just haven't figured it out yet. Although...Caro put in a valiant effort. :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

I really liked Julia's SL. It was magical and she used her age and everything so well. AS for Bolero I never appreciated Torvill and dean's Bolero. I read some article how they were suppose to be a passionate couple on the ice and I never got that. Not to be mean but Jayne had an old, sullen look. She did not have a soft face and that was projected on the ice. I always felt Katarina Witt's performances were rather contrived though she did perform the heck out of them. I almost expect Max Aaron to perform SL; I guess I don't know him but he seems to be really trying to become "artistic' by doing the classics.

Yulia has basically ruined Schindler's List programs for me...I've tried watching some from other skaters but they always seem inferior...and often boring (as expected with that kind of music). The German pair though, that one I did like. Still, Yulia's is a masterpiece and will rightfully be remembered as such by the millions she captivated.

Skater Boy said:

I almost expect Max Aaron to perform SL; I guess I don't know him but he seems to be really trying to become "artistic' by doing the classics.

Click to expand...

I doubt he would. It would bring up a whole raft of issues. Joshua could do it so perfectly because he is a very emotional skater, but Max is not like that. Even his Black Swan is attacking and intense; even the gentler Nessun Dorma has that power behind it. I doubt that he could rein in his intensity enough to do such a delicate piece of music.

Max has tried lots of different things in the past few years, but underneath they've all had that same type: power, intensity, character. He does the classics because he likes them, but have you noticed that the classics he does tend to have really bombastic parts to them? Carmen, Swan Lake, even the Nutcracker which Phillip assures us we will see at some future time. So no, I don't think there's a Schindler's List in Max's future, and frankly I doubt any of that generation of US Men will attempt it after the heartbreaking perfection that Joshua brought to it.

Unite said:

Yulia has basically ruined Schindler's List programs for me...I've tried watching some from other skaters but they always seem inferior...and often boring (as expected with that kind of music). The German pair though, that one I did like. Still, Yulia's is a masterpiece and will rightfully be remembered as such by the millions she captivated.

Click to expand...

This^^^ For me there are Shindler's lists but Yulia has The Shindler's list. Do not want to critisize other programs - they are nice but, sorry, ones of the many. Yulia's will stay for many many years as one of the kind.

chuckm said:

I have performed in plays. When a scene calls for a very profound emotion like great sorrow, anger or shock, it is not that easy to dispel that mood and come immediately back to one's everyday persona. Even at curtain call, the actor has a moment or two to collect him/herself before taking a bow.

Click to expand...

You're absolutely right. I think we're actually agreeing so now I'm confused.