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Thread: The quad throw

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    The quad throw

    USA's Tiffany Vise and Derek Trent were the first pair to land a throw quadruple Salchow in international competition (2007 Trophee Eric Bompard).

    Tiffany Vise and Derek Trent.jpg

    Other notables:

    2002 - Shen Xue and Zhao Hongbo (CHN) attempt a quadruple-throw Salchow at the Olympics. She lands, then falls, and the jump is not ratified.
    2004 - Ding Yang and Ren Zhongfei (CHN) attempt a quadruple-throw toe loop at the Four Continents Championships; the landing is two-footed.
    2008 - Yuko Kavaguti and Alexander Smirnov (RUS) became the second pair to land a quadruple-throw Salchow in competition, at the 2008 European Championships. They also were the first pair to land a quadruple Salchow at the Russian and World Championships.
    2012 - Sui Wenjing and Han Cong (CHN) became the first pair to attempt two quadruples, a quadruple-throw Salchow and a quadruple twist, in a program at the Four Continents Figure Skating Championships; the landing for the quadruple-throw Salchow is two-footed.
    2014 - Meagan Duhamel and Eric Radford (CAN) complete a quadruple-throw Salchow in domestic competition
    2015

    • Yuko Kavaguti and Alexander Smirnov (RUS) at a domestic competition (1st stage of 2015 SPB Cup) attempt two quadruple-throws, a quadruple-throw Salchow and a quadruple-throw loop. The landing for the quadruple-throw loop is two-footed, then she falls.
    • Meagan Duhamel and Eric Radford (CAN) at a domestic competition (2015 Souvenir Georges-Ethier) attempt two quadruple-throws, a quadruple-throw Salchow and a quadruple-throw Lutz, but she falls after the quad Lutz attempt.
    • Yuko Kavaguti and Alexander Smirnov (RUS) became the first pair to perform two quadruple-throws in one program, a quadruple-throw Salchow and a quadruple-throw loop, at the ISU competition - 2015 Cup of China, although the landing for the loop is two-footed. It is also the first attempt to perform the quadruple-throw loop at the international competition.

    2017 - Vanessa James and Morgan Cipres (FRA) at the 2017 European Figure Skating Championships attempt a quad Salchow throw, but the landing was two-footed.
    2018 - Meagan Duhamel and Eric Radford (CAN) complete the first quadruple-throw Salchow in Olympic competition.

    This thread has been revived for historical purposes.

    Feel free to discuss others to add to the list!
    Last edited by gsk8; 04-27-2019 at 10:44 AM.

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    Bona Fide Member andromache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsk8 View Post
    USA's Tiffany Vise and Derek Trent were the first pair to land a throw quadruple Salchow in international competition (2007 Trophee Eric Bompard).

    Since then, the following have landed the element. If I've left any out, let me know so I can edit/correct.

    Yuko Kavaguti and Alexander Smirnov (RUS) become the first pair to land a quadruple throw a Salchow at 2008 Europeans.
    Sui Wenjing and Han Cong (CHN) attempted it at 2012 4CCs, but it was two-footed.
    Meagan Duhamel and Eric Radford (CAN) successfully (cleanly) landed it at the 2014 Autumn Classic International, 2014-15 GP Final, 2015 Four Continents

    What other pairs are working on this element? Do you think it's necessary and/or worth the risk/reward?
    I think it will slowly become the standard, considering how many pairs are working on it to compete with Duhamel/Radford. Points-wise, however, I find it to be undervalued in comparison with how highly the quad is valued in the singles' disciplines. I believe the 4STh has a BV of 8, whereas the 4S in singles is a 10.5. I'm not sure why there's a double standard, since I don't think one element is necessarily easier/less risky than the other. (But maybe they equate to similar values overall, since pairs programs earn less points than men's programs overall anyway??)

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    I'd rather see a 3Th out of some kind of steps than a 4Th that is telegraphed for 5 seconds...

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    Its difficult to land a consistent quad throw in competition and the main reason why D/R can do it is because of the setup time and size (re:small) of the throw, which many people agree is not necessarily appealing. While others are working on this element, I'd say its only worth the risk if the rest of your program has a solid degree of difficulty to ensure that you don't lose the points that you gain with the throw elsewhere, which is another reason why the quad has worked out well for D/R.

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    Skating is Art, if you let it be Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I'm not super impressed with the current Quad throws because they not only tend to slow down a lot before going in, but are also ALL cheated. In all the pairs doing it now, the man doesn't completely release the lady until she is a full turn into the jump. It's a far cry from the Quad Salchow that Shen&Zhao attempted, which released earlier, was huge, fast going in, and had barely any setup time.
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 07-20-2015 at 11:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I'm not super impressed with the current Quad throws because they not only tend to slow down a lot before going in, but are also ALL cheated. In all the pairs doing it now, the man doesn't completely release the lady until she is a full turn into the jump. It's a far cry from the Quad Salchow that Shen&Zhao attempted, which released earlier, was huge, fast going in, and had barely any setup time.

    That statement is absolutely false.

    As for the speed issue i guess the more people practice them, The better they'll be integrated,

    It wouldn't help though that they decided to deduct an extra point just for quad throw falls in pairs (-4),
    That'll probably make everybody who goes for it extra careful, What's the point in going for a measly 8 point quad if you don't have
    a good shot of landing it, which will score you lower than a regular triple.

    I really don't understand some of the scoring in pairs.

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    I really do not understand some of the scoring, too.

    The quad salchow of Zhang/Zhang has been absolutly stunning:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2dUqG7xTLE

    In comparison the Quads of D/R and K/S seems to be childish.

    I hope to see some more big and high quads: perhaps from S/H, P/Z, V/T or Savchenko/Massot

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuadThrow View Post
    I really do not understand some of the scoring, too.

    The quad salchow of Zhang/Zhang has been absolutly stunning:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2dUqG7xTLE

    In comparison the Quads of D/R and K/S seems to be childish.

    I hope to see some more big and high quads: perhaps from S/H, P/Z, V/T or Savchenko/Massot
    I dont think V/T will ever do a quad throw. They don't even like 3F. They'd do 4Tw before a throw. Though I don't know why they're reluctant given the height of their triple throws.

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    Skating is Art, if you let it be Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    That statement is absolutely false.
    Well, what else are we going to call a throw where the guy is holding onto the girl until she is a full revolution into it? Nobody does that in Throw Triples, but in the Quads everyone does it now. The girls are only turning 3 times in the air after being released in these "Quads". Shen&Zhao and Zhang&Zhang did not do that in their Quads.

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    I find all the recent quad attempts much less impressive than V&T's throw triples. The skaters enter them with little speed and the women get very little height.

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    What are your thoughts on the quad throws since 2018?

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    Imo the scoring system should be adjusted, to reward quad throws and 4 twist more. Many couples who are able to perform them already said that it is not really worth the risk..

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    there are no thoughts post 2018 ... the new rules killed the quad throw.

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    You're missing the two notable quad throw events that are a big reason why many of us have reservations.

    Zhang/Zhang at the Olympics(about 0:45 in): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDAETM1oIo8
    Peng/Zhang warming up at French Grand Prix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HanrHjJNkn8

    Wenjing Sui is injured all the time and has had to skip so many events... here she is doing the splits after a quad throw: https://twitter.com/rockerskating/st...11419536072704

    The women being thrown don't have full control of the jump so their ability to react could be a little less than a singles skater attempting quads. And there's the issue of women being social pressured into doing quads in countries like China and perhaps latter on North Korea.. and to a lesser extent Russia into doing quads.

    The only way to do these quads safely is with a tall strong guy and a tiny girl... and to slow down and cheat the throw a bit like Blades of Passion hates. I would be more supportive if there was a medical safety monitor that certified certain pairs for their ability to do quads safely... maybe letting them do them just at the World Championship and Olympics. If pairs were to go in such an acrobatic direction with lots of quad throws then I think there could be room for another two skater discipline that's basically pairs shifted towards ice dance and with many of the scary elements taken out.

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    there are a variety of techniques... Duhamel Radford said it quite openly " their throws were more like assisted jumps" that way, Meagan was in control and safer. The chinese throws are MUCH bigger and more dangerous... it's their choice of technique that is dangerous.. not the quad throw itself....

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    The women being thrown don't have full control of the jump so their ability to react could be a little less than a singles skater attempting quads.
    There's also the fact that, as the jump tracking thingy at Worlds this year made clear, throw jumps go a lot higher than solo jumps. Some of them topped a metre in height! If I'm remembering my physics right, that means that the landing force is harder and its impact on the skater's body and brain is greater. If a skater lands with approximately 8 times their own body weight at the moment of impact for a solo quad that gets about .5m high, as I've heard mentioned before, what does the skater who lands a throw quad that goes so much higher experience? The risk of injury is so huge, in the moment and over time, that I'm perfectly happy to see pairs choose not to chase those extra points unless they're very, very sure that they can manage the risks. Especially as pairs, like ice dance, has a trend toward older skaters whose bodies are less able to absorb stress and bounce back from injury.

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    Also not many people are trying Throw 3A after S&M

    Throw 3A can be put into short programs which brings more BV advantages. The risk is lower but require different techniques. The take off is way too different with other throws. Some pair girls with good 2A and single skills should able to do that.

    Rena and Baldwin had the most beautiful throw 3A at 06 OG. https://youtu.be/_QCbAYc2GSg?t=153

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4everchan View Post
    there are a variety of techniques... Duhamel Radford said it quite openly " their throws were more like assisted jumps" that way, Meagan was in control and safer. The chinese throws are MUCH bigger and more dangerous... it's their choice of technique that is dangerous.. not the quad throw itself....
    Here's Kavaguti/Smirnov doing quad throws at CoC 2015:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6t7cgm4bT8

    Yes, with the Chinese throws they are more spectacular but they're also riskier because the man tends to "fling" the partner across the ice. For triples, this can be amazing to watch (like S/H's 3F), but for quads, it can prove to be super dangerous if something is off.

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    Observer 4everchan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Here's Kavaguti/Smirnov doing quad throws at CoC 2015:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6t7cgm4bT8

    Yes, with the Chinese throws they are more spectacular but they're also riskier because the man tends to "fling" the partner across the ice. For triples, this can be amazing to watch (like S/H's 3F), but for quads, it can prove to be super dangerous if something is off.
    yup.. KS here are using a lesser distance technique...

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    Marissa Castelli and Simon Shnapir did quadruple Salchow throw in 2014. Unfornately I haven't found any video, but as far as I remember it was double-footed at the Olympics and judging by GOE from the Worlds protocols there was a fall.

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