Who does great spirals?

os168 said:

shallow edge, deep edge, change of edge, inside edge, outside edge, edge variation. Visually it can be the degrees of 'physical lean' made only possible because of blade on ice and controlled motion of the skater. (Or that is my interpretation of it)

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Sam-Skwantch said:

How Deep a skater gets their edge into the ice while spiraling along.

It actually is harder to do complex spirals on a flat blade that doesn't have a deep edge. You'd likely encounter wobbles making it harder to dip your body into the curve and execute the spiral with your momentum if your edge isn't deep, secure, and defined. In this case CoP actually isn't rewarding difficulty as much as simplicity and a more steady ....some might say pretty....look.

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Thank you for answers guys.

So going further - isn't how deep a skater gets their edge into the ice determined by skater's weight?
If it's the case - wouldn't it mean that fs scoring system is objectively discriminating specific body types (slender)? (newbie logic )

witcher said:

Thank you for answers guys.

So going further - isn't how deep a skater gets their edge into the ice determined by skater's weight?
If it's the case - wouldn't it mean that fs scoring system is objectively discriminating specific body types (slender)? (newbie logic )

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i think by deep, they mean the angle of skate and ice, if its narrower it means deeper

matmuh said:

i think by deep, they mean the angle of skate and ice, if its narrower it means deeper

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Thanks, "narrower" sounds more fair than "deeper" to me...
Sorry for

witcher said:

Thanks, "narrower" sounds more fair than "deeper" to me...

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I think the language comes from the idea that the smaller the angle your blade makes with the ice, the "deeper into the ice" you are, as opposed to just skimming along the surface.

Here is a "deep edge."

http://up.gc-img.net/post_img/2015/05/3DwWXnlmqxpsDGt_NA8y3_161.jpeg

The reason the move is called a "spiral" in the first place is that if you can hold a deep edge the blade will automatically carry you around in a series of smaller and smaller circles, spiraling in toward the center. That is why skating along in a straight line with a pretty upper body position on a more or less "flat" blade (angel close to 90 degrees) is not particularly admired.

In a change edge spiral you have to shift position to keep your center of gravity inside the circle. That is why an outside edge spiral always looks more spectacular than an inside edge spiral.

Inside edge: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Michelle_Kwan_Spiral.jpg

Outside edge: http://blog.nikonians.org/archives/MichelleKwan.jpg

A deep edge will make a tracing on the ice more like C and a shallow edge more like (. Does the visual image of the tracing make "deep" and "shallow" make more sense?

Another way to think of it is the angle of the skating leg with the ice. On a deep edge the skater will be leaning, like /, and on a shallow edge the skater will be closer to upright, |. Deep lean vs. shallow lean of the body.


Also skaters tend to bend their knees more deeply on deep edges. That's often not true on spirals, where the skating leg is usually straight during the position. But for skating edges in general that's usually a useful association.

Here are some cool deep edges:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...tt_&_Todd_Gilles_Lift_-_2006_Skate_Canada.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...rshkova_&_Vitali_Butikov_2005_Croatia_Cup.jpg

I think that's the reason why everyone made fun of the Biellmann spirals that were so popular a few years ago, when you got an extra feature for this position in the IJS. No edges.

Mao:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3487/3874276207_442c66cd71.jpg

Sasha:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Sasha_Cohen_Biellmann.jpg

Shizuka:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3504/4050982983_782f156d42.jpg

Thanks guys.
I just initially reacted to the word "deep", taking it literally, imagining 60kg and 40kg skaters on the ice and giving 60kg skaters more points just because their edge gets deeper into the ice.
If you put it the way "deep" means attaining narrower (and more desired) body position during spiral, it sounds fair - even if 40kg skater will find it more difficult, we are judging the position itself, not pure physical aspects of their bodies.
Looks to me a bit like assessing 5 feet (150cm) tall basketball players depending on the fact if they can reach the net instead of just letting them compete vs feet taller opponents.

Mao was capable of holding a beautiful position/line and a deep edge:

http://image.space.rakuten.co.jp/lg01/92/0000189892/47/imgc209b96fzikbzj.jpeg

hurrah said:

Mao was capable of holding a beautiful position/line and a deep edge:

http://image.space.rakuten.co.jp/lg01/92/0000189892/47/imgc209b96fzikbzj.jpeg

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The one on the left is not a Biellmann, though. I think the problem is that the high center of gravity in the Biellmann position makes it hard to coordinate the edge, speed and balance.

If you put it the way "deep" means attaining narrower (and more desired) body position during spiral, it sounds fair - even if 40kg skater will find it more difficult, we are judging the position itself, not pure physical aspects of their bodies.

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I don't think small and light skaters are at a disadvantage. It is more about matching speed to degree of lean and taking advantage of centrifugal force.

Mathman said:

The one on the left is not a Biellmann, though.

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Aren't we talking about spirals in this thread?

Mathman said:

I don't think small and light skaters are at a disadvantage. It is more about matching speed to degree of lean and taking advantage of centrifugal force.

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Really?
But if you're heavier your edge has to dig deepper into the ice, right?
Plus (afaik) skating blades are not razor sharp, so taking advantage of centrifugal force is limited?

witcher said:

Thanks guys.
I just initially reacted to the word "deep", taking it literally, imagining 60kg and 40kg skaters on the ice and giving 60kg skaters more points just because their edge gets deeper into the ice.
If you put it the way "deep" means attaining narrower (and more desired) body position during spiral, it sounds fair - even if 40kg skater will find it more difficult, we are judging the position itself, not pure physical aspects of their bodies.
Looks to me a bit like assessing 5 feet (150cm) tall basketball players depending on the fact if they can reach the net instead of just letting them compete vs feet taller opponents.

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I see that as the only advantage of taller/heavier skaters in figure skating. There edges go deeper and are steadier and they should be rewarded for that.

chapis said:

so the long lines that get Carolina, Mao and Yuna are not impressive because it easier for them with longer limbs?
I mean, I am kind agree thinking in Satoko's tiny jumps, she is so small and skinny. or even Yulia get big jumps for her size. But usually people dont think like that.

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What are you talking about? I said it's harder for long legged skaters like Adelina or Mao to perform spirals the way they do because it's more difficult to stretch and extend when you have longer legs.

hurrah said:

Aren't we talking about spirals in this thread?

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Sorry. I thought you were responding to my post #86, about the difficulty of doing a Biellmann spiral on a deep edge.

As for small skaters (I am responding now to Witcher's post #87 about light-weight skaters), here is 43-kilo Tara Llipinski showing her edges. Plus, you can cut this out and have a Tara Lipinski paper doll. :yes:

http://www.angelfire.com/stars/taragoldendream/CUT1.jpg

I can't find the video, but in Karen Chen's gala at Nationals she did an absolutely gorgeous spiral, I just remember thinking "oh, wow!"

Mathman said:

I think that's the reason why everyone made fun of the Biellmann spirals that were so popular a few years ago, when you got an extra feature for this position in the IJS. No edges.

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Yes, true.

Mao:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3487/3874276207_442c66cd71.jpg

Sasha:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Sasha_Cohen_Biellmann.jpg

Shizuka:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3504/4050982983_782f156d42.jpg

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Mao's might be on a shallow inside edge -- hard to say at that angle.

The other two are from show programs, not from competition -- no judges, no points, so skaters can prioritize body positions and other audience-pleasing qualities without needing to worry about edges -- let the blade do whatever helps the big picture aspects of the move.

Around the beginning of IJS, I once heard a judge comment that the Charlotte on a flat that Sasha Cohen had been doing at the end of her short program spiral sequence around that time didn't count as part of the spiral sequence because it wasn't on an edge -- it was a "really cool transition."

witcher said:

Really?
But if you're heavier your edge has to dig deepper into the ice, right?
Plus (afaik) skating blades are not razor sharp, so taking advantage of centrifugal force is limited?

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That's not really the point, though. A "deep edge" does not mean that the blade digs deeper into the ice. It means that the angle it makes with the ice is, say, 60 degrees instead of 80 degrees. Of course it has to have enough bite that it doesn't skid, but that does not in general increase with smaller angles. In general, if you are leaning over at a 60 degree angle, your center of gravity is not over your skates. The only thing that saves you from toppling over is centrifugal force. If you are leaning way over, you have to go faster.

I don't think that a heavier person actually sinks farther into the ice as he is skating than a lighter person does, not to any great extent anyway.

(I think this is more straightforward for a spread eagle than for a ladies' spiral, though.)

Melon said:

What are you talking about? I said it's harder for long legged skaters like Adelina or Mao to perform spirals the way they do because it's more difficult to stretch and extend when you have longer legs.

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I think Chapis simply applied your logic to a different aspect of skating by suggesting that Mao, Carolina, and Yuna have longer legs therefore their 'lines' would be equally unimpressive compared to skaters with shorter legs as your suggesting some peoples spirals are under the same type of thinking. In other words. Like saying because someone is taller than another skater somehow their jumps would be less impressive than the shorter skater. Of course...maybe you are only interested in applying that type of thinking to certain elements.

I agree with Chapis though and don't understand the point of judging based on body type. Even just for the sake of discussion. That just seems unfair.

witcher said:

Really?
But if you're heavier your edge has to dig deepper into the ice, right?

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When we're talking about "deep" edges, we're not talking about how deeply into the ice surface the blades cut.

What the word refers to is the shape of the curve that the blade draws on the horizontal plane of the ice, not the vertical penetration of the blade into the ice itself.

(That might be an associated by-product, but it's not the defining characteristic of whether an edge is "deep" or "shallow.")

Sometimes I hear skating experts talk about skaters carving deeply into the ice (vertically deep in the sense you were initially thinking), and sometimes about skater skimming effortlessly over the ice. Usually these would be different skaters with different techniques, although the particular move the skater is doing might make a difference.

Both would be considered good qualities. And often the skaters who get praise for deep carving would weigh more than skaters who get praise for effortless skimming, but there isn't a direct correlation.

And both qualities could be done with deep edges in the sense of big curves and more lean of the body into the circle, away from vertical.

Plus (afaik) skating blades are not razor sharp, so taking advantage of centrifugal force is limited?

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The two edges of the blade can be pretty sharp when first sharpened. That can actually be a hindrance on some moves, such as spins or stops.

Skating technique is all about using centrifugal (and centripetal) forces. You can't lean the body at an angle far from vertical while you're standing still or traveling in a straight line. You need the centrifugal force to hold you up.

A good way to think about what figure skating is about at its essence is using the body to control the curve of blade edges on ice. The bigger and more secure the curves, the better the quality of the skating.

Making pretty pictures with the body, and everything else that happens above the ankle, from a visual perspective, are added benefit that makes skating a popular spectator sport and not just a technical exercise. But the essence of what makes figure skating figure skating is what happens between the blades and the ice.

Sam-Skwantch said:

I think Chapis simply applied your logic to a different aspect of skating by suggesting that Mao, Carolina, and Yuna have longer legs therefore their 'lines' would be equally unimpressive compared to skaters with shorter legs as your suggesting some peoples spirals are under the same type of thinking. In other words. Like saying because someone is taller than another skater somehow their jumps would be less impressive than the shorter skater. Of course...maybe you are only interested in applying that type of thinking to certain elements.

I agree with Chapis though and don't understand the point of judging based on body type. Even just for the sake of discussion. That just seems unfair.

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Body type matters. It's ugly to look at short legs with a long torso, and it makes you look like a dwarf when skating. Sasha and Michelle may look impressive when doing spirals because they not only hide their short legs, they also can stretch and extend easier than long legged skaters. Body shamming is wrong, I know, but you can't deny a body type like Carolina is more beautiful than Sasha's disproportionate body. (Or maybe you can, just not me)