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Thread: 2015 Mordovian Ornament Ladies SP and Free Skate

  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    go clean in a FS internationally she received slighltly lower than 130.
    Pogo's previous best result in FS was at Worlds-2014, 131.24

    At season 2014/2015 she was not absolutely clean, for example at Euro two non-jumping elements Level3 and two negative GOEs.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    It's an ISU official event they can't all be Russian,
    Judges and panelists were East european
    Yes.

    At Internationals judges are given by the same federations which send competitors.

  3. #483
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    I find it funny Kim's lingering fans are foaming about a 70+ PCS score given to Sotnikova in a B competition? The scores are dubious but in the end the placements were correct so really what is their peeve. What for me is more disturbing are incorrect placements. Kostner over Pogorilaya at WC 2014 is a good example which Kim fan's commended as good judging and Chan over Ten at WC 2013. Did Sotnikova stole somebody's podium spot? The answer is a resounding no. So why rehash the same BS heard at Sochi at this event? The answer is they can't help it.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Dance View Post
    They have never been comparable.
    They have never been comparable among different fields. (Scores inevitably grow higher among weak fields than they might for the same athletes competing in a deeper field).
    Scores have never been comparable at different times of the season.
    They have never been comparable among different host countries.
    They have never been comparable during seasons when talented young athletes go out and establish him/her/themselves.
    They have never been comparable among different panels.
    They have never been comparable during a season in which a slew of athletes retire and the door opens for other athletes.
    They have never been comparable between events in which the favorite skates first in the final group vs. when the same athlete skates last.
    And they have certainly never been comparable across different seasons.

    People may want scores to be comparable. People love to compare scores and claim that they prove one athlete is in a different class than another. People love to analyze scores for the sheer fun of doing so. People can certainly complain when inevitably one competition sends out higher scores than another & those scores are used as tie-breaking or qualifying criteria.

    But in reality, scores aren't comparable outside the parameters of a competition.
    Regardless of what you or I think, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

    It is the historical application of the rules and scoring trends over the entire course of COP judging history for more than 10 years indicate how the rules and code of points have been applied down to the macro level and how they have been carefully managed from competition to competition. The fact the current climate where specific group of skaters are marked regardless of how they performed shows discrepancy against these trends need to highlighted and questioned why.

    If what you say is true, we'd see ALOT more B events scores among the all time top 10 but there is a reason there has not been... until this event, even coming 2nd.

    While there have been fluctuations between competitions, they have always been comparable with a few astrix if you bother to study the pattern of scoring from season to season and from skater to skater subject to their technical content, delivery and the quality of program. Why do you think judges study old competitions, old study scoring references? Why they are encouraged to mark within acceptable corridors? It goes to the heart of the matter, on the consequence and purpose of inflation. Why it is in federation's interests to encourage inflation by having as many home events as possible for their preferred skaters? Take Adelina for instance. Given she skated 4 clean triples here without a 3/3, 2a3T, and a cheated lutz received a PCS of 72 (higher than Kim's clean FS at Vancouver.. an event many cries of inflation even back then), If she skate 7 triples next time, a PCS of 75 would suddenly not so high. This result can also be used to justify higher inflation over skaters like Mao or Gracie when they skate a cleanish program but get beaten by PCS. A fluctuation of 10-12 PCS is certainly an unhealthy amount of acceptable of fluctuation over a course of a season (12/70 = 17% inflation over a season) which I estimate all Russian youngsters benefit from right now vs their 2013 average season level, while others are slowly catching up on a relative basis, skaters like Satoko, Rika, but it is still delayed. I did not come up with these margin out of nowhere due to my preferences and biases. They are according to historical records. There's natural growth and there's inflated artificial growth, the current climate is infact very much inflated.

    I think there should be zero tolerance for all inflation just so all skaters should be able to compete more or less fairly wherever they are or whoever they are. What is the point of having a code of points if these codes are not followed through with consistency and more transparency? How will this impact the field with an inflation this early? I think this may spurt off a wave of inflation from event to event. Or ISU can do the responsible thing and be more careful of handing out PCS candies at Skate America, but then that'd makes it unfair for all other skaters that is not marked to the same standard.
    Last edited by OS; 10-21-2015 at 10:34 AM.

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by chairmanmao View Post
    I find it funny Kim's lingering fans are foaming about a 70+ PCS score given to Sotnikova in a B competition? The scores are dubious but in the end the placements were correct so really what is their peeve. What for me is more disturbing are incorrect placements. Kostner over Pogorilaya at WC 2014 is a good example which Kim fan's commended as good judging and Chan over Ten at WC 2013. Did Sotnikova stole somebody's podium spot? The answer is a resounding no. So why rehash the same BS heard at Sochi at this event? The answer is they can't help it.
    Ha aren't you being a bit short sighted? Wait until you see Mao losing a competition beaten by PCS. It would have been too late.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by chairmanmao View Post
    I find it funny Kim's lingering fans are foaming about a 70+ PCS score given to Sotnikova in a B competition? The scores are dubious but in the end the placements were correct so really what is their peeve. What for me is more disturbing are incorrect placements. Kostner over Pogorilaya at WC 2014 is a good example which Kim fan's commended as good judging and Chan over Ten at WC 2013. Did Sotnikova stole somebody's podium spot? The answer is a resounding no. So why rehash the same BS heard at Sochi at this event? The answer is they can't help it.
    I agree. If these scores were given to any skaters other than the Russians--including the Russian who supposedly robbed Queen Kim--no one would bother to complain. It's just not that important. Tempest meet teapot.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by chairmanmao View Post
    I find it funny Kim's lingering fans are foaming about a 70+ PCS score given to Sotnikova in a B competition? The scores are dubious but in the end the placements were correct so really what is their peeve. What for me is more disturbing are incorrect placements. Kostner over Pogorilaya at WC 2014 is a good example which Kim fan's commended as good judging and Chan over Ten at WC 2013. Did Sotnikova stole somebody's podium spot? The answer is a resounding no. So why rehash the same BS heard at Sochi at this event? The answer is they can't help it.
    Many people who are not uber fans of Yuna Kim have also questioned the judging at this event.

    At this point I think it's a matter of principle, not placements.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-21-2015 at 11:16 AM.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I think there should be zero tolerance for all inflation just so all skaters should be able to compete more or less fairly wherever they are or whoever they are. What is the point of having a code of points if these codes are not followed through with consistency and more transparency? How will this impact the field with an inflation this early? I think this may spurt off a wave of inflation from event to event. Or ISU can do the responsible thing and be more careful of handing out PCS candies at Skate America, but then that'd makes it unfair for all other skaters that is not marked to the same standard.
    As long as there is anonymous judging and judges are beholden to their federations, nothing will change. And the ISU doesn't want it to change. They want to deal with it--or not deal with it--internally. The ISU is essentially not accountable to anyone except themselves.
    Last edited by jenaj; 10-21-2015 at 11:17 AM.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    I agree. If these scores were given to any skaters other than the Russians--including the Russian who supposedly robbed Queen Kim--no one would bother to complain. It's just not that important. Tempest meet teapot.
    Cant' speak for others, but not in my case. I have gone through same thing with Kostner, Hanyu, Chan, Asada, Ando and the European championship 2013 scores way before Sochi. So could it be possible that I actually care about PCS credibility as a patron of the arts?

    The sooner people can get over the prejudice against fans of Ms. Kim, the sooner you can understand why this is a legitimate concern for the future of this sport and all its competitors.

    "Great minds discuss ideas,
    Average mind discuss events
    Small minds discuss people"
    - Eleanor Roosevelt

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Cant' speak for others, but not in my case. I have gone through same thing with Kostner, Hanyu, Chan, Asada, Ando and the European championship 2013 scores way before Sochi. So could it be possible that I actually care about PCS credibility as a patron of the arts?

    The sooner people can get over the prejudice against fans of Ms. Kim, the sooner you can understand why this is a legitimate concern for the future of this sport and all its competitors.

    "Great minds discuss ideas,
    Average mind discuss events
    Small minds discuss people"
    - Eleanor Roosevelt
    See my previous post on why the fans' concerns are irrelevant.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexRus View Post
    Pogo's previous best result in FS was at Worlds-2014, 131.24

    At season 2014/2015 she was not absolutely clean, for example at Euro two non-jumping elements Level3 and two negative GOEs.
    Wasn't she clean at skate canada?

  12. #492
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    Meh.
    Last edited by Mista Ekko; 10-21-2015 at 01:18 PM.

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Wasn't she clean at skate canada?
    Negative GOE at one jumping element (except 3F(e)) and two Level3 non-jumping elements. Less clean than at Worlds-2014.
    And skating was not so impressive as at Worlds-2014, it means lower PCS.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexRus View Post
    Negative GOE at one jumping element (except 3F(e)) and two Level3 non-jumping elements. Less clean than at Worlds-2014.
    And skating was not so impressive as at Worlds-2014, it means lower PCS.
    K, 131 it is
    Last edited by Mista Ekko; 10-21-2015 at 02:34 PM.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow63 View Post
    Google Translate And now you know everything. Everyone there undarstand that the scores were inflated, trust me. The main thing people is angry about is that the author claims that Ilinykh/Zhiganshin's spin should be counted as CoSp2 or even CoSp1 (because judges chosed this option on the screen at first!!!! wow!)
    Maybe the author should be more worried that the technical panel at first thought it was a combination spin! If he had done even a moment of research he could see that I/Z had done the same spin the 2nd half of last year and it was always called Sp4.

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by uhh View Post
    Maybe the author should be more worried that the technical panel at first thought it was a combination spin! If he had done even a moment of research he could see that I/Z had done the same spin the 2nd half of last year and it was always called Sp4.
    Yeah, this is a VERY telling mistake. I wonder who the technical specialist was.

  17. #497
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    Ms. Halina GORDON POLTORAK
    Denis SAMOKHIN
    Ms. Julia KOMLEVA

    I don't really know the technical specialist & assistant tech controller, but Gordon Poltorak is one of the top ISU tech controllers & chairwoman of the ice dance technical committee, so she should know! (Maybe she was the one who caught the mistake?)

  18. #498
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    http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pai...-series-201516


    CHALLENGER SERIES RANKING At the end of the ISU Challenger Series, after the last event of the season has been concluded, the two highest final scores in the up to three different ISU Challenger Series events of each competitor/couple will be added and taken into consideration to form an ISU Challenger Series Ranking which will be published on the ISU website.

    In the Challengers Series, money prizes and standings are determined by Scores, rather than placements.

    (and scores are used for TES qualifications for ISU Championships as well.)

    So inflated scoring is bound to cause people to be upset.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-23-2015 at 07:28 AM.

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