2015 Skate America Ice Dance FD Oct 24

Skater Boy · Oct 25, 2015

Astrid56 said:
As far as musical interpretation, C/B cleverly ... skillfully succeeded in emoting the composer's mindset ... struggles with clinical depression. Concerto 2 was sort of a statement/acknowledgement of the composer's struggles and later recovery from this depressive state ... having his self-confidence back finally overcoming what you would term a writer's block. C/B, I believe, were NOT skating a ROMANCE ... they were depicting the composer's emotional struggles and eventual psychological triumph. It is said that to deal with his problem, he was subjected to hypnotherapy - one could just imagine that struggle. Indeed, it's a hard piece to skate to and they were brave to explore this Rach music in this FD. I love their movements subtly, cerebrally depicting the many emotions _ pain, sadness, confusion, joy, etc ... gripping him.

I didn't like the last lift but I wonder if they decided to do that to reflect the composer's final acceptance of his problem _ to carry the burden responsibly.

Yes, I am sure that is exactly what C and B were going after.

They might very well be the most cerebral skaters of all time. AStrid 46's comments are either brilliant in respect to C and B or what some people might call a two word expletive. I hope that Astrid's interpretation is correct because that would be nice. But in the end it didn't come off all that brilliant to many of us. But we aren't the judges.

meem · Oct 25, 2015

Mathman said:
What a wonderful read. I doubt if Madison or Evan know any of that, but it is very cool even so. :yes:

Heh heh. If that's what it was all about, I stand in awe. Depicting a composer's mental state while skating to his music is a new one for me.

GF2445 · Oct 25, 2015

meem said:
Heh heh. If that's what it was all about, I stand in awe. Depicting a composer's mental state while skating to his music is a new one for me.

Pity that the eurosport commentators did not love it.

NorthernDancers · Oct 25, 2015

Snow63 said:
The main point of ice dance is that couple should move across the ice in holds, that's one of the main thing that makes the dance difficult - close holds. It's okay to skate not touching each other, on parallel lines at some points in a dance, you can even call it dancing, and that's what they are doing a lot. And also they use simple hand-in-hand hold through half the dance, Pairs couples do that too. That was my point.
People slam Coomes/Buckland for being not dancey and too pair-ish, in this FD Gilles/Poirier do the same. And again, I LOVE their FD, it was my favorite of the night. But I can see why not everyone like it.

As for Chock/Bates, this FD is a big dissapointment for me personally. Same their new SD.

Thank you, Snow63. I completely agree. G/P are very innovative, which I appreciate immensely, and I think they will be fantastic show skaters. They are fun, great sense of humour, have great personality, and like to push boundaries. But when it comes to the technical things: matching edges and lines (look at some of the pictures on the web - you can see they do not lean at the same angle and sometimes she will not even be on an edge at all), the lack of difficulty in holds, the lack of quality of the patterns and steps, etc, it's just not at the same level as the top teams. I have thought for a very long time that they look more like a pairs team than a dance team. I was thinking this might improve with time, but it has only done so very marginally. I was very upset when judges gifted them so much in Canada, since it reinforced the idea they can hide these weaknesses and make up for it in pizzazz. But to crack the top ranks for the sport at Olympics and Worlds, they need to address this technical side. Maybe spend some time with Igor or some other technical task-master in the off season, away from their usual rink. And they need to keep an eye on their competition at home. Orford/Hill have the capacity to pass them, Paul/Islam when they are on with good programs could beat them (and have in the past), DelMaestro/Lum are enormously talented and could be top 3 by 2018.

I tend to not like C/B very much either, and I feel they are often over-marked. They do have better technical skills than G/P, but I don't see them so much as great dancers. I much prefer the Shibs and Hawayek/Baker. Both the Shibs and H/B understand the nuance of the music, and have better flow and edge quality. Quality expression and great choreography in ice dance should start at the feet and knees and hips, augmented by hands and facial expression and the rest of the body. I find that with both G/P and C/B, it's the hands and face and OTT funky movements that hide average to below average feet and knees and hips.

Barb · Oct 25, 2015

Astrid56 said:
As far as musical interpretation, C/B cleverly ... skillfully succeeded in emoting the composer's mindset ... struggles with clinical depression. Concerto 2 was sort of a statement/acknowledgement of the composer's struggles and later recovery from this depressive state ... having his self-confidence back finally overcoming what you would term a writer's block. C/B, I believe, were NOT skating a ROMANCE ... they were depicting the composer's emotional struggles and eventual psychological triumph. It is said that to deal with his problem, he was subjected to hypnotherapy - one could just imagine that struggle. Indeed, it's a hard piece to skate to and they were brave to explore this Rach music in this FD. I love their movements subtly, cerebrally depicting the many emotions _ pain, sadness, confusion, joy, etc ... gripping him.

I didn't like the last lift but I wonder if they decided to do that to reflect the composer's final acceptance of his problem _ to carry the burden responsibly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koKcQPt1i7Q seg 36-39 looks like ROMANCE.

Astrid56 · Oct 26, 2015

Skater Boy said:
Yes, I am sure that is exactly what C and B were going after. They might very well be the most cerebral skaters of all time. AStrid 46's comments are either brilliant in respect to C and B or what some people might call a two word expletive. I hope that Astrid's interpretation is correct because that would be nice. But in the end it didn't come off all that brilliant to many of us. But we aren't the judges.

Generally, the performers, if they are artists and true to the composer's intent/sentiment, would try to interpret the piece as intended. In dance, that is usually the case. I guess, I see things differently because of my background/training.

caitie · Oct 26, 2015

NorthernDancers said:
Thank you, Snow63. I completely agree. G/P are very innovative, which I appreciate immensely, and I think they will be fantastic show skaters. They are fun, great sense of humour, have great personality, and like to push boundaries. But when it comes to the technical things: matching edges and lines (look at some of the pictures on the web - you can see they do not lean at the same angle and sometimes she will not even be on an edge at all), the lack of difficulty in holds, the lack of quality of the patterns and steps, etc, it's just not at the same level as the top teams. I have thought for a very long time that they look more like a pairs team than a dance team. I was thinking this might improve with time, but it has only done so very marginally. I was very upset when judges gifted them so much in Canada, since it reinforced the idea they can hide these weaknesses and make up for it in pizzazz. But to crack the top ranks for the sport at Olympics and Worlds, they need to address this technical side. Maybe spend some time with Igor or some other technical task-master in the off season, away from their usual rink. And they need to keep an eye on their competition at home. Orford/Hill have the capacity to pass them, Paul/Islam when they are on with good programs could beat them (and have in the past), DelMaestro/Lum are enormously talented and could be top 3 by 2018.

I tend to not like C/B very much either, and I feel they are often over-marked. They do have better technical skills than G/P, but I don't see them so much as great dancers. I much prefer the Shibs and Hawayek/Baker. Both the Shibs and H/B understand the nuance of the music, and have better flow and edge quality. Quality expression and great choreography in ice dance should start at the feet and knees and hips, augmented by hands and facial expression and the rest of the body. I find that with both G/P and C/B, it's the hands and face and OTT funky movements that hide average to below average feet and knees and hips.

G/P do not remind me of a pairs team at all, and I think a lack of holds is honestly going to be a more and more common criticism of ice dancing going forward, especially if teams continue to try and bring currently popular genres like contemporary dance to the ice. If I watch any dance show right now or even a ballroom show-dance competition, I see lots of side by side dancing and innovative lifts. Hawayek and Baker say it is their dream to work with Travis Wall. This is the type of dance that many up and coming ice dancers are being inspired by.

I also think that while the Shibutanis and H/B have better flow, Chock and Bates, despite Madison's so-so edge work, seem to skate bigger with more ice coverage, speed, and projection into the audience. I also appreciate that they seem to change their elements up a bit more than the Shibutanis, and their height difference allows them to generate some very 'wow' moments like the first lift of their American In Paris program or the end of their new SD. I personally prefer the Shibutanis and H/B and H/D because those are the American teams whose programs I find myself rewatching, but I can see reasons why C/B are the top team aside from their technical proficiency.

Astrid56 · Oct 26, 2015

Snow63 said:
Is it just me, or Sinitsina/Katsalapov's FD looks somewhat similar to Chock/Bates's one? I don't know, I'm not a choreographer or any other dance specialist, but it looked to me like they have the same choreographer

And Nikita has best edge-work from all of the skaters who skated today, male or female, I still don't know why he has chosen to skate with Vica? She just can't keep up with him, not speed-wise and not technique-wise. Their team leave an impression of a Senior skater who skate with Junior skater. :no: Good for them to have best TES mark, of course, but this dance give them no justice, too boring and bland.

And a couple of words about Gilles/Poirier: despite having some troubles with technical content, some flat turns andpoor edges overall I still liked their FD the best of all. And their StaLi is amazing, I'm glad more dancers decided to do stationary lifts in a last couple of years. This one is my favorite by far Are they deserve to be second here? No, but they certainly were entertaining.

Marina and Igor came from the same 'mold' so their choreographic style would be a bit similar. Anyway, given the music choices, they are bound to choose this traditional ... so-called boring ... bland style. Obviously, they can choose another route _ do a modern interpretation but what sort of movements will they do? Maybe satiric? LOL. For instance, ballet is ballet. In this case they are doing contemporary the ice-dance way. You can't compare the G/P music to these two's - apples and oranges [G/P choose appropriately the style that suits their music which is another form of contemporary dancing]. The music decides the dance-style. Anyway, I am not an Ice-dancer_ (my background is Dance/Theatre) so I concede most of you guys know better than I do when it comes to Ice-dancing.

Astrid56 · Oct 26, 2015

chapis said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koKcQPt1i7Q seg 36-39 looks like ROMANCE.

Well, depression is very intimate - intensely personal. If this is performed singly, the performer would move differently. It brings to mind dancing the PASO, the dancers usually use the 'matador-cape' concept where one performer depicts the matador stance and the other shows the cape. Rachmaninoff suffered and fought depression by availing the expertise of a hypnotherapist which meant he tried to deal with his demons head-on. The music is very revealing of his psychological ups and downs _ his sufferings and triumphs.

Astrid56 · Oct 26, 2015

GF2445 said:
Pity that the eurosport commentators did not love it.

meem said:
Heh heh. If that's what it was all about, I stand in awe. Depicting a composer's mental state while skating to his music is a new one for me.

I guess it is but the style is typical of most modern dances - Martha Graham style. The movements were very elemental and tended to depict the psycho-socio-political even sexual issues of her time.

Astrid56 · Oct 26, 2015

Of course, I admit I could conceptually be totally wrong. It's a risk artists take if they purposely deviate from the original sentiment of a musical piece.

BTW, Maddie seems to be an artist - saw her painting (she posted on instagram) and it's very interesting artwork.

Sandpiper · Oct 27, 2015

My two cents about Gilles/Poirier's programs (just on the performance/enjoyment level; can't really judge the technical stuff): I found them interesting, but also understand why people may not like it. The programs were... for the lack of a better term, deliberately unpretty? No pointed toes or extended limbs. However, you could tell this was a deliberate choice. Not always the most aesthetically pleasing thing to watch, but it stands out from the other teams and is definitely not boring.

moon · Oct 28, 2015

I think that this is the point many people are trying to make. They are fun to watch but ice dance is a sport and is and should be marked predominantly on technique and quality of the blades knees and hips. This is the quality that makes good icedance versus pairs without lifts
I also dont think sloppy feet and poor extension is a quality that any dancer is trying to show no matter what style they choose. This is not just a G/P problem. So many teams are trying to emulate SYTYCD programs and it has turned into messy show dancing. If you cant control your body movements and are constantly clutching and grabbing your partner for balance then scale back on the OTT moves and concentrate on partnering properly and blade work.

wasabi · Oct 28, 2015

moon said:
I think that this is the point many people are trying to make. They are fun to watch but ice dance is a sport and is and should be marked predominantly on technique and quality of the blades knees and hips. This is the quality that makes good icedance versus pairs without lifts
I also dont think sloppy feet and poor extension is a quality that any dancer is trying to show no matter what style they choose. This is not just a G/P problem. So many teams are trying to emulate SYTYCD programs and it has turned into messy show dancing. If you cant control your body movements and are constantly clutching and grabbing your partner for balance then scale back on the OTT moves and concentrate on partnering properly and blade work.

Well stated, thankyou.

2015 Skate America Ice Dance FD Oct 24

Skater Boy

meem

GF2445

NorthernDancers

Barb

Astrid56

caitie

Astrid56

Astrid56

Astrid56

Astrid56

Sandpiper

moon

wasabi

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