2015 Skate America Mens FS Oct 24

Shawn Swayer does the best I-spin and a great sustained Cantilever, but the coolest Cantilever is now performed by Luba as the entry to a death spiral by I/M.

Max completely destroyed my predictions, but I'm so happy for him and the deserving win! It was nice to see him not just land the jumps, but also to look good while doing them. The last time I saw these programs was WTT--I think the SP has improved, though the LP, well... I prefer the original rough version. Not everyone will like Max or his skating, but irregardless of that, I think it's good for the sport to have the cleanest, most technically proficient skate winning over skates that have slews of errors (even if they're more conventionally "artistic," whatever that means).

Shoma skated a great LP and I completely understood why the crowd cheered so loudly for him. His low jumps sometimes bother me, but at least the judges have cooled down on the excessive GOE.

I quite liked Jason's LP--it's different from past programs. Wish he'd change the outfit. And wish he'd change the SP too, for that matter (sorry, like a certain skater below, it seemed like a repetition of past programs)

Menshov's music cut was quite strange, but... I wouldn't say I dislike the program. That StSq was also one of the few that actually seemed choreographed to the music.

I still like Han Yan, but I'm so done with his programs. My brain just shut off completely during the short; it was basically every program he's ever done, yet again and again... At least the long wasn't another one of those. Too bad it was, as people noted, his version of Ghost. Why can't his wonderful SS and airy jumps (even the loop and salchow seemed to float!) be paired with better programs and more improvement in upper body movement?

Mura was just... frustrating to watch. All those pops in the middle... I thought there couldn't be a more skate until...

Denis Ten. At this rate he'll win the Olympics before he wins a GP. I wasn't expecting a great early season Denis, but I also wasn't expecting just two "clean" triples (and one was a shaky landing on the toe). Even Mura fought back a little in the dying seconds. I know injury could've contributed to this--but if it was this bad, not sure if he should've skated...? Either way, I hope he recovers and does better later on (and I'm sure he will).

I liked Florent's SP, dalmatian outfit and all, but this LP was a little... hmm. Uncharacteristically bland for Florent, even outside the jump troubles.

To not end this too-long, so-late post with all this negativity, I must say, I really enjoyed Brendan Kerry. Wonderful quad, nice posture and flow.

Sandpiper said:

To not end this too-long, so-late post with all this negativity, I must say, I really enjoyed Brendan Kerry. Wonderful quad, nice posture and flow.

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:yay:

MAXSwagg said:

Well, of course you have to consider the technical difficulty of Max's programs because the skating skills are mediocre, faux, fake, "velour" artistry. One MUST look only at the technical aspect when it come's to Max, regardless of whatever improvement there may be.

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I'm not saying only look at the technical aspects. But give technical proficiency/difficulty/execution its due. People (albeit a minority of them) act as though Max should have lost no matter how well he skated (heck even if he had landed his 2A cleanly... and note that the deduction on Shoma's opening quad cost him more than the deduction on Max's double axel). Because when a skater (who falls and commits minor errors) is superior artistically to another skater who still brings the technical goods and skates cleaner, there should be no way the technical skater wins, right? :sarcasm: That's why Ten should have won 2013 Worlds, and so many skaters should have beaten Hanyu at 2014 CoC, and Anna should have a World bronze.

And it's not like Max won by a landslide; he only won by a few points. To me, a more artistic (though not vastly more artistic skater) like Uno having a fall and two minor errors and some level 2s could arguably lose to a skater who lands his quad. If Aaron's PCS was 79.8, he still would have won over Shoma - but people would have whined that Max's PCS wasn't dropped low enough for Uno to win. And therein lies my gripe of the judges using PCS to manipulate results in spite of technical performance. Thankfully, that didn't happen here and most people agree that the right skater won.

It's unfortunate when a guy who lands all 3 quads and all 3 axels but his overall skating isn't the greatest (though not mediocre), he's apparently unworthy of ever winning. But a guy who's more artistic is deemed the de facto winner, even if he falls and commits minor errors.

Shoma fell in his SP, and that was the main difference - those 6ish points he lost compared to a clean quad (and then losing about 3.5-4 more points which he would have gained for cleaner landings on his 4T and 3A+3T in his FS; and another 2 points for his level 2s on his combo spins and StSq in the FS). That's almost 12 points he could have gained. Max lost 1 point on a double axel, lost about 2 points on spin levels - and fine, if you wanna consider it an "error" he lost 2 points for turning his 4S+3T, 2Ax to a 4S+2T, 3Tx (though he would have lost way more had he tried a 4S+3T and crashed into the boards). So Shoma overall committed 12 points worth of errors across both programs, and Max committed only 5 points. (I'm going to ignore the ridiculous assertion about not doing the 3F being an error because as pointed out, there are many ways skaters don't maximize points that aren't "errors"; Uno didn't do a 2nd half 3A, Aaron didn't move his 3A to his second half in the SP, neither skater did combos with 2Ls instead of 2Ts, etc.)

So that's a 7 point difference of lost points between the two. And given Max skated a clean SP where Shoma fell, and both skated about the same level of clean in the SP, I don't think the 7 points of difference could arguably be made up in components (it's not like Uno skates like a Chan/Hanyu/Ten at this point - although it is his senior debut, and all).

Wins are based on points and if you leave a ton of them on the table, you don't (and shouldn't) win. It's quite simple, really.

Sandpiper said:

Max completely destroyed my predictions, but I'm so happy for him and the deserving win! It was nice to see him not just land the jumps, but also to look good while doing them. The last time I saw these programs was WTT--I think the SP has improved, though the LP, well... I prefer the original rough version. Not everyone will like Max or his skating, but irregardless of that, I think it's good for the sport to have the cleanest, most technically proficient skate winning over skates that have slews of errors (even if they're more conventionally "artistic," whatever that means).

Shoma skated a great LP and I completely understood why the crowd cheered so loudly for him. His low jumps sometimes bother me, but at least the judges have cooled down on the excessive GOE.

I quite liked Jason's LP--it's different from past programs. Wish he'd change the outfit. And wish he'd change the SP too, for that matter (sorry, like a certain skater below, it seemed like a repetition of past programs)

Menshov's music cut was quite strange, but... I wouldn't say I dislike the program. That StSq was also one of the few that actually seemed choreographed to the music.

I still like Han Yan, but I'm so done with his programs. My brain just shut off completely during the short; it was basically every program he's ever done, yet again and again... At least the long wasn't another one of those. Too bad it was, as people noted, his version of Ghost. Why can't his wonderful SS and airy jumps (even the loop and salchow seemed to float!) be paired with better programs and more improvement in upper body movement?

Mura was just... frustrating to watch. All those pops in the middle... I thought there couldn't be a more skate until...

Denis Ten. At this rate he'll win the Olympics before he wins a GP. I wasn't expecting a great early season Denis, but I also wasn't expecting just two "clean" triples (and one was a shaky landing on the toe). Even Mura fought back a little in the dying seconds. I know injury could've contributed to this--but if it was this bad, not sure if he should've skated...? Either way, I hope he recovers and does better later on (and I'm sure he will).

I liked Florent's SP, dalmatian outfit and all, but this LP was a little... hmm. Uncharacteristically bland for Florent, even outside the jump troubles.

To not end this too-long, so-late post with all this negativity, I must say, I really enjoyed Brendan Kerry. Wonderful quad, nice posture and flow.

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My impressions were mostly similar to yours (although I didn't enjoy Shoma the way most of the audience did...yes, he's talented, he just isn't charismatic enough for my taste - and I hate Nessun Dorma). I am neutral on Max, but I really loved his FS and was thrilled to see him win over the overhyped favorites. He's never going to make everyone happy, but his style works for him and not everyone has to be a "pretty" skater. Especially in the men's discipline.

Even if Denis were healthy, that program was a chore to sit through...such pretentious, monotonous music. "The sun, the sun, the sun..." :disapp:

I felt bad for Mura, he tries so hard in practice but it just wasn't happening. Another strange program, but there were many at this event.

Laaaate to watch but So happy Max won, though this only adds to the evidence that my faves only do well when I don't watch. I must admit I didn't expect this many pages of 'discussion' over a GP win with pretty much clean programs. Even if I don't like either of his programs this year. I wish he could just have fun with his programs like last season. He just needs to own it like Javi does.

I admit it took Shoma getting his jumps under him for me to really like him, but now he has everything and it's spectacular, especially since it can only get better from here. The FP is in a different class to everybody here.

I wish Jason would improve his SS faster, but I like the combination of his two programs, and I like what he's trying to do with the FP, I can't wait to see it when it's more fluid and clean (predicting this'll happen at nationals).

I don't think Han Yan has 'found' himself/ his style yet. Like I think sometimes the music he picks is things he likes to listen to, but not necessarily is the best at portraying. Then there's the FP, which I started out thinking that it sits on him better, but then I don't know what happened in the second half, and even some of the first half I think could've been choreographed better. Still he has time to find his style and improve, and it'll be awesome when he does.

Poor DTen's GP woes continue, but I blame the FP shirt. (it's ugly, even if it's not as ugly as Mura's), speaking of; I'm ridiculously attracted to Mura, and I love him to death, but WTAF is going on with his FP costume?