The demise of the Qualifying Round | Golden Skate

The demise of the Qualifying Round

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
At the European and Four Continents Figure Skating Championships there will be no qualifying rounds. Therefore the competition will consist of a short program and free skating only. Previously a qualifying round was held if there were more than 31 entries in one discipline.
Yeah!!!! :love: :love: :love:
At all ISU Figure Skating Championships in ice dancing up to 30 couples will compete in a single group for the compulsory dance. Previously the couples were divided into two groups if there were more than 25 entries.
Yeah!!!!
At the World Junior Figure Skating Championships the qualifying round (if required) will determine the top 30 participants who qualify for the short program but the points awarded in the qualifying round will not be carried forward to the final result.
Yeah!!!

Now if only they would smarten-up about senior worlds. :rolleye:
 

BravesSkateFan

Medalist
Joined
Aug 7, 2003
Yeah! Well its a start. Maybe if they decide that this is working out well then they'll remove it from Big Worlds too.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
There were many proposals (especially from the Russian Federation) to do away with QR. Suggestions included having top 10 Europpeans and 4CC skaters get in automatically, and everyone else to ahve QR that would not count toward the ultimate score.
 

Spinner

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 12, 2003
Ptichka said:
Suggestions included having top 10 Europpeans and 4CC skaters get in automatically,
Hmmmm, that would cause many skaters on this half of the globe to think twice about summarily skipping 4CC because it's not an 'important' competition. Too bad it wasn't passed.
 

SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I don't like the idea of some people having to skate an extra long program and others not having to do it. Even if the scores aren't carried forward, it costs the skater time and energy. ''Big name'' skaters have such a huge advantage under any scoring system. They don't need the free ride. The ISU needs to keep the ''playing field'' level. Everyone should skate the QR or no one should have to do it.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
30 skaters for the final round of LP is more than enough. Thjat means there would 5 groups of 6 skaters. enough.

There should be some sort of an elimination round. If you don't like the LP then make a suggestion/

Joe
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ptichka said:
There were many proposals (especially from the Russian Federation) to do away with QR. Suggestions included having top 10 Europpeans and 4CC skaters get in automatically, and everyone else to ahve QR that would not count toward the ultimate score.
I think this is a great idea. The skaters who wouldn't qualify automatically are often those who don't get to travel or compete much, and I think it is an advantage to them to do a quali round, to get the feel for the ice and how the size affects placement. I don't think it's unfair to ask non-qualifiers to skate an extra program. Many sports have seeds and qualifying rounds.
 

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
I don't get this "big name skaters have all the advantages" stuff. They don't get excused because they are famous, they get excused because they skated well in other events. If Tugba K wants to be excused from the QR, then she better get her butt in the top 10 at Euros or whatever. What's next "all skaters have to take the gold test every year so that the skaters taking it for the first time aren't at a disadvantage'? :rolleye:

To me, the SP is the perfect QR. Can she do a combo? Can she do a jump out of steps? Can she do an axel? etc... Now that's a fair way to decide who is more qualified than the others. Also, doing one or two more skaters in a SP isn't going to kill the judges. I'll bet it's a lot easier than judging over 30 extra LPs!
 

SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I would agree with using the SP in place of a QR. It's just a matter of everyone being treated equally throughout the competition.

Sometimes I have doubts about figure skating really being a sport and it's not because of the subjective nature of presentation. It's because even most of the fans/officials don't treat it like a sport. Don't runners, tennis players, different sport's teams have to earn their wins at competitions by beating the other competitors? If Joe Somebody Jr won his last 3 races, does it mean that he doesn't have to outrun the other athletes in his next race?

Of course, the process of getting to competition varies. However, ideally, once the competition begins, every competitor should be treated equally. There shouldn't be this attitude that what happened at the last competition somehow counts at this one. That's not the reality of figure skating, but we don't have to make it even worse by demanding more from certain competitors than others.


Another point-

What I said was
''Big name'' skaters have such a huge advantage under any scoring system.

Who is more likely to be held up in spite of mistakes? That's a huge advantage.
 

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Don't runners, tennis players, different sport's teams have to earn their wins at competitions by beating the other competitors?
You're confusing genres.

Runners have heats because it would be physically impossible to have 50 or more runners all on the same track at the same time. Tennis and team sports are 1on1. Just like MK almost always wins her QR, Michael Johnson almost always wins his heat, etc... Justine H-H lost at Roland Garos for example because she was sick, not because her oponant was actually any good.

Skaters go one at a time. The only reason for a QR is that supposidly it's too difficult for judges to sit through 32 or more SPs at one time. At the Olys they just limit the number of skaters they invite.

With a judging system favorites will always be held up, QR or no QR.
 

SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Michael Johnson almost always wins his heat,

My point is that he doesn't get to skip the heats. He has to earn his wins every step of the way. Past glories mean zip.

At the Olys they just limit the number of skaters they invite.

If the judges can't treat each competitor equally, it might be the only fair thing to do. However, I think they could find a way to schedule it. I'm not inclined to accept unfairness to spare the judge's tushies.

With a judging system favorites will always be held up, QR or no QR.

I know, that's the reality of the situation. So, do we make it even worse by letting big name skaters skip past part of the competition?
 

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
My point is that he doesn't get to skip the heats. He has to earn his wins every step of the way. Past glories mean zip.
Not exactly true. IIRC, the runner with the best time from the last race gets the best lane, etc...the runner with the worst time the worst lane, so they do kinda get stuck in a hole.

Other than that, unless you build a 36 lane wide track, you won't get a situation close to FS.

What's been happening at Euros, for example, is ridiculous IMHO. If there are 31 skaters, then there is no QR. If there are 32 skaters, than all 32 skaters have to skate an additional LP which counts toward the final score. I don't see how that is fair on any of the skaters in any way, shape or form.

For example, at 03 Euros Plushy had to skate two programs (7min10sec), with a total of 3 quads to win. At 04 Euros, Jubert had to skate 3 programs (11min40sec) with a total of 5 quads to win. Just because 1 more guy showed up.
 

SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I don't think it matters if they run at the same time, as long as they have to run the same distance.

Likewise, the skater's should have to skate each phase of the competition to win. No free rides!

As far as Euro's, I agree it was ridiculous. I can't imagine how using the SP as the QR is so much more trouble than the way they've been doing it. I am just against making some skaters skate an extra program. It's hardly the most fair solution to the problem.
 

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Likewise, the skater's should have to skate each phase of the competition to win. No free rides!
See, I just don't get what the big deal is.

94 worlds both MK and Bobeck had to do a QR. MK passed, Bobeck failed. 95 worlds, Bobeck had to do the QR, MK didn't. To me, she earned it. In the end, Bobeck did better anyways. I just don't see how this was so unfair.

It's a nice theory, but in reality I don't see it making any difference.

Anyways, it's a mute point as the system we're debating doesn't exist. It was just a proposal and it didn't pass. Everyone does the QR at worlds. :)
 

SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I just don't like the idea of ''carrying credit'' from one competition to the next. It strikes me as giving the favorites a headstart.

I hope they eventually ditch the present QR and use the SP. It makes more sense to me.:)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Here's a suggestion:

1. Eliminate the QR.

2. Increase the SP to 3.5 minutes

3. Set a minimum total score from the SP by using COP

4. Skaters falling below the minimim score are eliminated.

5. All scores are dropped before the LP.

6. Skaters who remain in contention skate the LP and this score will name the podium.

Joe

.
 

SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I think something along those lines might work. The minimum score idea might pose problems. I'm getting images of a splatfest causing way too few to make the cut. A nicer image is a magnificent series of performances and too many make the cut. It would be safer to go by placement.
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I think this is a great move. I never liked the fact that the qualifying round counted at Worlds. It was always more exciting when the skater in 3rd or 4th after the SP actually had a realistic chance at winning the title. And, I have to agree with Berthes Ghost. The "big name" skaters are big name skaters because they bring it when it counts. If other skaters want to be "big name" skaters then they need to follow suit. I know that sounds a bit harsh, but the skaters that deserve to be in the competition will be if they deliver. Being a "big name" skater didn't help Chen Lu at all at the 1997 Worlds. What did they do before 99? Wasn't there a qualifying round (which didn't count)that eliminated some followed by the short which eliminated yet more competitors? I wouldn't object to something similar to the old system.
 

berthes ghost

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Not sure when it started, 93 is the earliest I know of (Maria didn't make it out of QR and Russia could only send 1 lady to Lillehammer), but form 93 to 99 the top 10 from the previous year's worlds didn't need to do the QR. Everybody else, including newbees, did.

93 worlds: Oksana skates QR and wins worlds, Surya, Nancy and Lulu don't and don't. Maria and Tonia K are eliminated in QR.

94 worlds: MK and Bobeck do QR as first timers. MK passes, Bobeck fails.

95 worlds: Because she was intop 10 in 94, MK is excused from QR. Bobeck does QR and passes this time.

96 worlds: Former world champ and Oly medalsit Midori does QR because she wasn't at 95 worlds and hence not in top 10. So much for a "big name" being held up. Tonia K has to do QR as well.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I believe what we should be doing is suggesting ways to rid the QR unless, of course, you believe it should remain.

From my perspective, the QR doesn't eliminate enough skaters and we are left with five groups of 6 or 30 contestants in all.This is great for the avid skating fan, but, far too many, imo, to judge really fairly. Given my track record on bashing judges, I do feel for them. (And how many lay back spins can one watch without getting bored? There are only about 10 skaters with decent laybacks.)

I reiterate my suggestion to allow all contestants to skate the SP (increase it by a minute). There should be groups of six and the skater placed in a group by a draw. There will probably be 7 groups. In a good mix in each group, the judges will have to be on their toes.

Set the minimum points a skater has to achieve to qualify for the LP. The minimum points will vary with each competition, and to allow for no more than 18 skaters to go on to the LP.

I think it would be realistic to say that any of the 18 skaters could achieve a 3rd place finish in the LP. The LP would be the final score for the contest. No prior scores will be considered. Since all the finalists will be equal before the LP, each skater has a chance for the podium and no one has an advantage.

There should be a three day rest or practice sessions between the SP and LP.

Just a suggestion., otherwise keep the QR.

Joe
 
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