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2015 Golden Spin of Zagreb Ice Dance
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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Yes, I believe adelia is correct here. S&B pulled out of Finlandia due to health reasons.
However they were re-booked for two later Challenger events. Denkova/Staviski Cup and Ice Challenge. I never expected them to compete in both, and thought perhaps they were hedging their bets in case they couldn't make it back for the first competition. They could easily have won either Challenger. However, they chose to compete at the Russian Cup event at the same time period instead.
I think, in dance, there is still a lot of concern about reputation. That teams and federations worry about a single defeat marring a team's chances throughout the season. Therefore, many teams prefer to make a domestic debut to iron out the kinks prior to an international debut. (There's nothing wrong with this idea. S&B may just not have felt they had time for both after the health issues delayed their early season).
However, the Shibs success after their third place finish at Nepela has sent a very different message this season. Obviously the feedback did help them (due to the way they responded to it), and obviously the placement didn't irreparably damage their GP season. I wouldn't be surprised if more dance teams compete on the Challenger Series next year. I've never seen such a sharp turn-around for a team mid-season in dance before. (I don't usually watch pre-GP events though). There really is a big difference between a debut performance and the second time out in competition. And there really has been no clear advantage to teams like I&Z, S&B, or even G&P who scored particularly well in their early events. Meanwhile, both the Shibs and Weaver & Poje seem to have taken their early feedback very seriously and reaped the benefits. More so, IMO, than U.S. teams in the past who re-vamped their entire programs based on an internal committee. There really is a different level of critique in a more distant international dance panel. And perhaps even a different form of appreciation. I can't help but feel like the "soft" take on H&D's FD is a bit too North American/Canadian driven. V&M's style is so pervasive in Canada. I wonder if H&D had debuted in Europe whether their program would look very different now.
It's an interesting discussion. And one more sign that change in the dance world really is genuine, rather than just a temporary shift.
Yeah, I'm sorry it was not Finlandia, but some other Challenger Event, maybe IceChallenge? My mistake, but the point still stands. Same about Monko, I meant CoR obviously, not NHK. And my point still stands, ALL of this teams had an opportunity to skate AT LEAST at one of Challenger Events, and I have no idea why they've chosen not to do it. In MY opinion, it's a mistake.
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Same here, Snow63! I've been wondering through the whole season why the Russian ice dance teams don't take part in Senior Bs. Even Russian novice skaters are taking part in some international competitions! And in the disciplines where Russia needs it the most, all the teams chose to stay at home. I am especially frustrated with Yanovskaya and Mozgov - these 2 clearly needed competitions to calm down their nerves and help them improve stuff.
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Absolutely, an early run in the Challengers series should be a must for teams debuting in Seniors, like Yanovskaya and Mozgov. So many former Junior ice dancers, even Junior World Champions, have quite a shock when they discover that Seniors is a big change. It is better to get all the input they can before skating their first ever GP event.
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Snoooow, your new user title
laughed as much as when I saw it in the interviewI totally agree about our almost nonexistent dance presence at senior Bs:scowl:
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Snoooow, your new user title
This line from Zoueva is as epic as 'Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn!' by Clark Gable from 'Gone With The Wind', and 'I'll be back' by Arnold Schwarzenegger from 'Terminator', isn't it?
Well, SK were supposed to skate senior B but he was injured. SB were supposed to skate senior B but wasn't he sick? MK and YM, I agree never did sign up for any... weird! they should!
Yes, I agree! In fact, I think a debut at a senior B at home can be misleading and ultimately they are not helpful if judges are not honest with the teams.
For example, IZ thought they had it in the bag after Mordovian ornament, 70 for the SD, 106 for the FD. The fans, including myself, were expecting a high start. Now, I wasn't naive enough to think they would be scoring 70 and 106, after all, the senior B was in Russia, but I thought they would be close, or closer. However, reality was different. Their first GP event at CoC was a 63 for the SD and a 95 for the FD, a far cry from the Mordovian Ornament scores. I think IZ were surprised. They didn't get constructive criticism at their Senior B, whereas Shibs did. Shibs didn't score well and they fixed it. IZ on the other hand had a false sense of security and I think their first scores at CoC were the equivalent of a cold shower.
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I do think the general trend of Russian dance teams not competing in Senior B's is odd. Many of the teams did have an excuse for one or even a few events, but all of the events? The fact is that I/Z are the only top Russian dance team (and I say 'top' very very loosely, what I really mean by it is basically any Russian dance team on the Senior level who has any potential whatsoever) to have competed in a B event this fall. This is weird and unusual among nations, I am sorry.
M/K and Y/M didn't even sign up for an event as noted above. S/B, however, were signed up for 3 by the federation. He was sick for one, but they seemingly just decided not to go to the other two, deeming it 'not worth it' in some way. S/K were injured early in the season but could have snuck in a later challenger event if they wanted to. Yes it's a bit more of a pain for them due to where they train, but the ranking points honestly could help them. B/S seemingly did want to do one but she got food poisioning. While I understand why they don't want to do one now, in all honestly, probably they also could have snuck one in if they'd really wanted, and it might probably have been helpful to them, also partly for ranking points, but partly too for feedback.
Despite many of the teams having a valid and real excuse for this event or that event, the clear general trend that snow63 is mentioning is real, bizarre, and perhaps even troubling. As was also noted above, I think it is maybe partly a throwback to wanting to get feedback nationally instead of internationally to avoid a 'bad impression' but what did taking that route do for S/B? Nothing. It got them a crazy and wildly inflated score, ostensibly accompanied by wildly positive feedback, and then they went and had their mediocre GP showings and made no improvements since last year really. Would that be different if they'd done a B? Maybe, maybe not, but at the very least they'd have gotten more realistic feedback.
Just my two cents.
M/K and Y/M didn't even sign up for an event as noted above. S/B, however, were signed up for 3 by the federation. He was sick for one, but they seemingly just decided not to go to the other two, deeming it 'not worth it' in some way. S/K were injured early in the season but could have snuck in a later challenger event if they wanted to. Yes it's a bit more of a pain for them due to where they train, but the ranking points honestly could help them. B/S seemingly did want to do one but she got food poisioning. While I understand why they don't want to do one now, in all honestly, probably they also could have snuck one in if they'd really wanted, and it might probably have been helpful to them, also partly for ranking points, but partly too for feedback.
Despite many of the teams having a valid and real excuse for this event or that event, the clear general trend that snow63 is mentioning is real, bizarre, and perhaps even troubling. As was also noted above, I think it is maybe partly a throwback to wanting to get feedback nationally instead of internationally to avoid a 'bad impression' but what did taking that route do for S/B? Nothing. It got them a crazy and wildly inflated score, ostensibly accompanied by wildly positive feedback, and then they went and had their mediocre GP showings and made no improvements since last year really. Would that be different if they'd done a B? Maybe, maybe not, but at the very least they'd have gotten more realistic feedback.
Just my two cents.
So to bring the thread back on topic -- though I'm really enjoying this discussion and wouldn't mind if it continues...
I am glad that Hawayek and Baker are competing here. I really do feel the GP was a huge setback for them, but I'm hoping it provided some good feedback and perhaps prompt action to rework their dances. I'm hoping that we'll see some major changes from them since we saw them in China.
I am glad that Hawayek and Baker are competing here. I really do feel the GP was a huge setback for them, but I'm hoping it provided some good feedback and perhaps prompt action to rework their dances. I'm hoping that we'll see some major changes from them since we saw them in China.
I hope so!! I really like their FD. Their SD I am not so crazy about, so I hope they made some changes for their SD. I love this team and think they have lots of potential.
Agreed. Yes, I forgot about the crazy SB scores. But, that was my point also with IZ. They got crazy scores at Mordovian Ornament, in Russia, which probably wasn't helpful, their first scores at CoC were not even close. Both got a good dose of reality check.
I also think that knowing what to do with criticism is an art. The Shibs' free & W&P's short dance are examples of teams taking that criticism and using it to help maximize their own strengths. Kudos to the Shibs, Marina, etc. for re-envisioning their program while staying true to their determination to go in a new direction. And to W&P for completely embracing their new SD. Goodbye Elvis. Hello tradition. And it works for them. They don't need to go all Gilles & Poirier. They have the chemistry to sell this program. Two completely different approaches used by both of these teams, and the changes work.
I am much less confident about Chock and Bates's free skate. When I watched it at Nebelhorn, I felt something. The opening moments really seemed to establish a relationship, and later Evan had a gorgeous turn where he was the focus of the choreography. Little things, here and there, throughout the program that made me feel it had potential. Najarro's choreography. But I was disappointed with the version at Skate America. It didn't feel as strong, or perhaps it just hadn't grown the way I anticipated it would. And as soon as I realized the tech score was low, I started to worry that Igor would chack more of the nuances in order to pump up the points. Which is what happened. Evan's turn was gone prior to CoC. And the program feels more generic. I'm sure the low levels they received at CoC will be fixed. But I'm concerned that the artistic potential I saw early on will never be realized. (They are welcome to prove me wrong).
C&B are my example this season; but there are plenty of examples from years past. Hubbell & Donahue's free skate from last season. I don't know what it would have looked like in its original rendition--reflecting the Great Gatsby era; but I suspect I would have liked it better. The Shibs' SD back in 2012. They were told Mary Poppins was too juvenile and were pushed into doing something that not only didn't sing for them, but didn't have the joy of the selected rhythm. You're only the youngest competitive dance team for a short time. Why not embrace it? Lobacheva & Averbuch's Cirque FD the year they were defeated by F-P&M at SA. Changing the program was a knee jerk reaction. How were they to know the loss had precious little to do with them and that other dance teams were going to get passed by F-P&M before season's end? B&S's birds program. I actually thought it was quite difficult. I was all for scrapping the cawing at the ceiling, but going backward to a previous program really doesn't work in dance. It actually highlighted the difficulty that was no longer there. The criticism all these teams received early on may have been perfectly valid, but the changes made weren't what I would call successful.
In general, I think you have to listen. To embrace the criticism that feels right for your own team. But in general the solutions have to be internal. External suggestions only work if they ring true within you. And sometimes you have to let that criticism go. (Personally, I am so grateful that none of the top dance teams are letting TSL dictate their program styles and selections. LOL). I'd like to see another team pull off C&L's joyous and exuberant FD. And I am thrilled that the Shibs have found a way to make their SD stand out from last season's elegant waltz, while still staying true to the rhythm, humor, and a relationship that defines them. Programs can always grow and improve. I really feel they should. But developing a program; that's an art.
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Meanwhile, Fournier-Beaudry and Sorensen from Denmark are not on the start list.
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Is anyone watching? Is anyone able to watch? I can't get the stream to work for me 
I am watching on the paid subscription. Ice Dance Commentary in English. Interesting that she is explaining the rules of the SD requirements. There is a problem with the scoring system so that the rankings will only be posted after the completion of the groups.
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