Gold vs. Wagner

yuzushenko · Jan 20, 2016

saw a practice clip of gracie's 3Lz3T and 3F from theskatinglesson

her flip doesn't look any better, that edge is definitely on a flat or nearing an outside edge

and then in the combination...her 3T at the end just has this weird flow in the air...like she didnt get high enough and it could have been a fall. just not controlled. the lutz didn't look that sure, either.

cant wait to see ashley practice

drivingmissdaisy · Jan 20, 2016

Mathman said:
There is also the problem of a bye for a dominant champion who misses Nationals because of injury (like Michelle Kwan in 2006). For the most part people usually give a grudging OK to this anomaly, but there is always something about it that rubs people the wrong way. The person who gets left home (ironically, Michelle Kwan at the 1994 Olympics, when Nancy Kerrigan got a medical bye) gets a lot of sympathy (but no trip to Worlds).

It has never rubbed me the wrong way that Michelle was chosen over Emily, or Nancy over Michelle, or Ashley over Mirai. Every time the far superior competitor was sent, based on past results. The USFSA is trying to send the team with the best chance of high placements, not send a team of skaters who skated well at exactly one event. Anyone can make the world team by winning the event, so if you want to be on the team skate great at Nationals or medal at Nationals and skate well throughout the season. Don't ho hum through the season, win a bronze and expect to displace the silver medalist for an Olympic spot on the basis of a very average season.

mrrice · Jan 20, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
My biggest annoyance with Gracie is her flow on her jumps. Her Lutz is huge though but there is quite the long set up into it and she lands with absolute minimal holding out of the edge. If she would loosen up her flow I'd be very grateful :cool14: She doesn't have to hold it like Max Aaron or anything but how about a little style on it. As it stands now she just seems so upright and tight and puts her free leg down almost immediately. At least she goes all the way around

I really don't care about height of jumps. I need that smooth flow for me to be wowed.

I have had this very conversation with my skating friends. Some of them say that they like the way she lands because it makes it clear that there's no under rotation. I always say, Tonya Harding had Huge Jumps and she also had great control and flow out of her jumps. Her Lutz actually made the crowd gasp almost as loudly as they did after her triple axel.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 20, 2016

drivingmissdaisy said:
It has never rubbed me the wrong way that Michelle was chosen over Emily, or Nancy over Michelle, or Ashley over Mirai. Every time the far superior competitor was sent, based on past results. The USFSA is trying to send the team with the best chance of high placements, not send a team of skaters who skated well at exactly one event. Anyone can make the world team by winning the event, so if you want to be on the team skate great at Nationals or medal at Nationals and skate well throughout the season. Don't ho hum through the season, win a bronze and expect to displace the silver medalist for an Olympic spot on the basis of a very average season.

I'm sorry but I think this is a partial reason that Anerican skating is where it is now. When skaters can get away with letting competitions slip away and still be given a shot to go to worlds it sends a message. I can see both sides of the coin but think that the thought process you've given can lead to complacency. Just saying. It's not as clear as you seem to imply and a little shake up can be a good thing. Not likely were going to see it though. Not the way things are run now.

skateluvr · Jan 20, 2016

mrrice said:
That's what I thought. I don't think Angela has a rotation problem either. How old is Courtney Hicks? I was so impressed with her composure at NHK and I can only hope it wasn't fluke as She has future champion written all over her.[/QUOTE

How did Hicks score in PCS? I truly do not see her as a champion. So many reasons but I sure hope not because other complete package skaters would be messing up big time. I cannot even look at the costume and the hairdo. I totally do not enjoy anything but her jumps.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 20, 2016

skateluvr said:
mrrice said:

That's what I thought. I don't think Angela has a rotation problem either. How old is Courtney Hicks? I was so impressed with her composure at NHK and I can only hope it wasn't fluke as She has future champion written all over her.[/QUOTE

How did Hicks score in PCS? I truly do not see her as a champion. So many reasons but I sure hope not because other complete package skaters would be messing up big time. I cannot even look at the costume and the hairdo. I totally do not enjoy anything but her jumps.

Click to expand...

I think she got a new dress for the FS. I personally think she has some of the best if not the best SS of the Americans. She's powerful and deliberate and doesn't really on interpretation to mask as SS.

temadd · Jan 20, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'm sorry but I think this is a partial reason that Anerican skating is where it is now. When skaters can get away with letting competitions slip away and still be given a shot to go to worlds it sends a message. I can see both sides of the coin but think that the thought process you've given can lead to complacency. Just saying. It's not as clear as you seem to imply and a little shake up can be a good thing. Not likely were going to see it though. Not the way things are run now.

In the case of Ashley vs Mirai in 2014, Mirai's only good competition was nationals. She was terrible in the Grand Prix and had not skated well the season before either. Ashley's only bad one was Nationals. In the Grand Prix she was silver, bronze and bronze (final) and silver in the final the year before. So yes, Ashley let one competition slip, while Mirai let all but one slip. Seems pretty fair to me.

StitchMonkey · Jan 20, 2016

temadd said:
In the case of Ashley vs Mirai in 2014, Mirai's only good competition was nationals. She was terrible in the Grand Prix and had not skated well the season before either. Ashley's only bad one was Nationals. In the Grand Prix she was silver, bronze and bronze (final) and silver in the final the year before. So yes, Ashley let one competition slip, while Mirai let all but one slip. Seems pretty fair to me.

she won Bronze at COR that year.... not that bad really.

Lexiglass · Jan 20, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'm sorry but I think this is a partial reason that Anerican skating is where it is now. When skaters can get away with letting competitions slip away and still be given a shot to go to worlds it sends a message. I can see both sides of the coin but think that the thought process you've given can lead to complacency. Just saying. It's not as clear as you seem to imply and a little shake up can be a good thing. Not likely were going to see it though. Not the way things are run now.

American skating is the way it is because there is not enough money or central organization in elite skating in the US to compete with countries that foster talent from a very young age. Your argument is really grasping at straws IMO. Are you trying to imply that American ladies don't feel pressure to compete well at nationals because they can rest on their laurels based on their body of work? Where is the evidence for that? Where I'm standing it seems like American skaters are still VERY invested in becoming national champion, maybe even moreso now because they struggle to compete at the top levels internationally. And is there any evidence that treating nationals as a make it or break it competition forces people to do well? Look at Russia - no lack of talent, so you do well at nationals or you're sunk - yet, Liza and Adelina still faltered! Figure skating is a tough sport, and sometimes people just have bad competitions. To argue that that's complacency is silly to me. The fact that anyone is arguing that the USFSA should knowingly send an athlete that is not competitive internationally over a skater that has a better track record and risk the ability of future athletes to compete at the top international events (by potentially losing spots) makes no sense to me. The field in the US is not deep enough to base these decisions purely on nationals results if nationals results are flukey.

Mathman · Jan 20, 2016

drivingmissdaisy said:
It has never rubbed me the wrong way that Michelle was chosen over Emily,...

As big a Michelle fan as I am, I saw her skate in her last performance, a phone-in-your-vote cheesefest. Michelle was so crippled up she could hardly walk, much less skate (she won anyway

). Some USFSA officials later observed her in a closed-door test skate and announced that she was fit to compete at the Olympics. She re-injured herself in practice on the first day and withdrew, giving Emily plenty of time to take her place.

If it had been any other skater of the modern era, this would not have happened (except Plushenko

). As it was, Michelle's expected participation generated a lot of publicity for the Olympics TV coverage. I'm glad I am not a cynical person. But I do have to raise the question, "who decides?' There is just something in me that does not like the answer, "a select committee of the powers that be."

In the case of Mirai or Ashly in 2014, at least there was an objective, pre-announced list of criteria that would be taken into account (U.S. Nationals placement, last year's Worlds, etc., in decreasing order of importance). This made the choice of Ashley legitimate according to the rules.

I don't know. A football team goes to the Super Bowl because it wins the semi-finals, do or die, not because it had the best overall season. It just seems "more like a real sport."

VIETgrlTerifa · Jan 20, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'm sorry but I think this is a partial reason that Anerican skating is where it is now. When skaters can get away with letting competitions slip away and still be given a shot to go to worlds it sends a message. I can see both sides of the coin but think that the thought process you've given can lead to complacency. Just saying. It's not as clear as you seem to imply and a little shake up can be a good thing. Not likely were going to see it though. Not the way things are run now.

It doesn't seem to hurt the Russians or Japanese who do not use their Nationals as the be all to end all in terms of Worlds/Euros/4CC/Olympic selections. The U.S. is sort of an anomaly by using Nationals results as the determinant with few exceptions. I'd also accept your theory if the U.S. was known for skipping over skaters who placed higher at Nationals to put in another skater with a better record. They've done that very rarely. It's also a bit weird to say that when Nancy Kerrigan 1994 and Michelle Kwan 2006 were used as specific examples as Kwan had a pretty legendary career after being skipped over for Nancy and Emily got to skate at the Olympics and Worlds in 2006. I think the U.S.'s problem in mens and ladies is due to other factors as someone else already explained.

drivingmissdaisy · Jan 20, 2016

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'm sorry but I think this is a partial reason that Anerican skating is where it is now. When skaters can get away with letting competitions slip away and still be given a shot to go to worlds it sends a message. I can see both sides of the coin but think that the thought process you've given can lead to complacency. Just saying. It's not as clear as you seem to imply and a little shake up can be a good thing. Not likely were going to see it though. Not the way things are run now.

It's a very uncommon occurrence to have a skater not go to worlds whose placement at nationals was high enough. Moreover, every legitimate contender has a chance to show great form through the season in GP's and/or Senior B's. Regardless of what happens this week, Ashley and Gracie should be on the team. There is a huge gap in quality and scoring potential between them and the rest of the field.

mrrice · Jan 20, 2016

VIETgrlTerifa said:
It doesn't seem to hurt the Russians or Japanese who do not use their Nationals as the be all to end all in terms of Worlds/Euros/4CC/Olympic selections. The U.S. is sort of an anomaly by using Nationals results as the determinant with few exceptions. I'd also accept your theory if the U.S. was known for skipping over skaters who placed higher at Nationals to put in another skater with a better record. They've done that very rarely. It's also a bit weird to say that when Nancy Kerrigan 1994 and Michelle Kwan 2006 were used as specific examples as Kwan had a pretty legendary career after being skipped over for Nancy and Emily got to skate at the Olympics and Worlds in 2006. I think the U.S.'s problem in mens and ladies is due to other factors as someone else already explained.

I think there's a big difference between being injured like Michelle in 2006 and skating badly. By 2006 Michelle had years of successful performances under her belt. I was really on the fence when Ashley was selected over Mirai. BTW, Have they ever interviewed Mirai about her feelings about that selection?

VIETgrlTerifa · Jan 20, 2016

mrrice said:
I think there's a big difference between being injured like Michelle in 2006 and skating badly. By 2006 Michelle had years of successful performances under her belt. I was really on the fence when Ashley was selected over Mirai. BTW, Have they ever interviewed Mirai about her feelings about that selection?

I actually do agree with that. I didn't have much of a problem regarding Nancy and Michelle, but Ashley bugged me even though I understood it. I don't think Mirai would have had as high of a placement as Ashley in Sochi (I don't even think she would have skated as well as Polina did to be very honest), but it still irked me just because I was so used to the USFS going with the highest finishers at Nationals and they seemed to make a very rare exception for Ashley who wasn't injured. There was sort of an appearance of unfairness, though the decision could be justified and technically the rules don't say the highest finishers are automatically chosen for Worlds/Olympic teams. The USFS just hasn't had to invoke it that often. They did the same with Meissner over Hacker in 2008, but Hacker was very limited jump wise.

In re Mirai's feelings, I think she threatened to appeal but later dropped it.

Sam-Skwantch · Jan 20, 2016

Lexiglass said:
American skating is the way it is because there is not enough money or central organization in elite skating in the US to compete with countries that foster talent from a very young age. Your argument is really grasping at straws IMO. Are you trying to imply that American ladies don't feel pressure to compete well at nationals because they can rest on their laurels based on their body of work? Where is the evidence for that? Where I'm standing it seems like American skaters are still VERY invested in becoming national champion, maybe even moreso now because they struggle to compete at the top levels internationally.

I was simply addressing the notion that people were stating here in this thread that Ashley and Gracie should just go regardless of their results at Nationals. I wasn't delving deep into the history of US figure skating and its selection process. I just wanted to point out that I believe that type of thinking may lead to complicancy. Not only for the beneficiaries but it might stall the entire program itself if people become distraught and feel they don't have a chance. Maybe it is bit of straw grasping on my part but the mind is a fickle thing. I would prefer that the top three age eligible placements in the biggest event of the year get the chance to go to 4CC's and earn their chance to go to Worlds there. How the US handles 4CC is a thread in it of itself though.

I've already said I see both sides of the coin but I think if my side lands up you would be just as likely to see everyone's competitive spirit come out at Nationals. In fact I would tend to believe even more so.

Mathman · Jan 20, 2016

It is interesting to draw a comparison with the way the USFSA treats pairs. (In each of these examples the U.S. had two Olympic spots in pairs.)

2006 Nationals: Newly formed pair Marcy Hinzmann and Aaron Parcham :rock:

barely nipped 2005 U.S. champions and world competitors Katie Orscher and Garrett Lucash for silver. Hinzmann and Parchem went to the Olympics and Orscher and Lucash stayed home, no questions asked.

2010: Amanda Evora :love:

and Marc Ladwig skated beyond anything they had done before and grabbed second ahead of two-time U.S. champs and former Olympians Rena Inoue :love:

and John Baldwin. Evora and Ladwig went to the Olympics and Inoue and Baldwin stayed home, no questios asked. (John was mad about it. though -- not about being left off the team, but about the judges' scoring.)

2014: Felicia Zhang :love:

and Nathan Bartholomay gave the skate of their life :points:

http://www.youdontknowjersey.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Felicia_Zhang.jpg

and took silver just ahead of 2012 U.S. champions and world competitors Caydee Denney and John Coughlin. Zhang and Bartholmay went to the Olympics and Denney and Coughlin stayed home.

The message in pairs was clear: If you want it, skate for it.
_____________________

In 2006 there was a huge tsumani in Indonesia. Tanith Belbin and Benjamin Agosto organized a benefit skating program to raise money for relief efforts. I sat right next to Aaron Parchem, who was working the spotlight. Katie Orscher, Garrett Lucash, and Johnny Weir warmed up the audience by doing side-by-side-by-side triple jumps. Inoue and Baldwin stole the show with a routine to "There she was just walkin' down the street, singin', "Do wah diddy, diddy, dum diddy do." Why don't they write great songs like that any more? :laugh:

They raised $25,000.

KweenAsada · Jan 20, 2016

I am totally behind Ashley, but I want Gracie to skate clean well, too. Honestly, though, I want all of the "top" ladies to go balls to the wall. They are evenly matched technically. They just have to do their best. It will be a VERY interesting event if they all skate to their best abilities. It's most likely not gonna happen, but a man can dream.

I'm most interested in Mirai. Something tells me she's going to show out and shake things up.

Mathman · Jan 20, 2016

VIETgrlTerifa said:
In re Mirai's feelings, I think she threatened to appeal but later dropped it.

I'm sure the disappointment lingered, but in a couple of days she got her anger under control well enough to issue this official statement:

"I'm disappointed in the decision," she said. "Though I may not agree with it, I have to respect the decision the federation made. And I'm grateful to everyone who has supported me and look forward to what comes next in my skating career."

Later she got it together enough to text Ashley, saying

You know what, you deserve to be on this team. I'm cheering you on, good luck,

Ashley said that the message meant the world to her.

Layback11 · Jan 20, 2016

So, the start order is out. Gracie is the penultimate skater and Ashley skates directly before that.

Thoughts?

(My two cents: I'm going to cry.

)

VIETgrlTerifa · Jan 20, 2016

Speaking of Mirai, if Ashley places 4th or lower again and Mirai places third behind two age-eligible skaters, do you think they'll leave Mirai off the team again?

Gold vs. Wagner

yuzushenko

drivingmissdaisy

mrrice

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

skateluvr

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

temadd

StitchMonkey

Lexiglass

Mathman

VIETgrlTerifa

drivingmissdaisy

mrrice

VIETgrlTerifa

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Mathman

KweenAsada

Mathman

Layback11

VIETgrlTerifa

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