US Men: Did the judges have it right?

Mathman said:

I think they got thee top five exactly right, although I was rooting for Grant Hochstein to get a medal.

About the judges looking perplexed, that's one of the features of the IJS. The judges just put in their marks in the appropriate boxes and don't know until it's over who they scored for the win.

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THIS.

If Adam had won by 20 points with all three skating exactly as they did, I think people could cry shenanigans. He didn't. It was a very close competition--less than 4 points between first and third place. And that is easily explained. No sane person could have scored Adam lower in PCS especially Transitions (seriously--there was a point in Nathan's program where he stood still for a moment--that is not a transition element), Choreo, and Interpretation than the other two. There's where he made up the difference between himself and Max from the short . Then you look at levels. Max lost to Adam on the step sequence because he only achieved a level 3 there while Adam got level 4. Likewise he beat Nathan on spins where Nathan had level 3 where Adam had level 4 again.

The good news for Max and Nathan is that they should be able to correct those levels and help themselves before Worlds. The PCS may not be so easy. But perhaps this competition can be a wake up to both and their teams to pay attention to these details.

Mathman said:

I think they got thee top five exactly right, although I was rooting for Grant Hochstein to get a medal.

About the judges looking perplexed, that's one of the features of the IJS. The judges just put in their marks in the appropriate boxes and don't know until it's over who they scored for the win.

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That's what they say about IJS... but these judges know what they're doing. It's entirely possible to have a very good idea of how you are scoring one skater's elements vs. another skater's elements, and especially how you are scoring one skater's PCS marks vs. another skater's PCS marks. Mind you, I have only judged gymnastics and refuse to get into judging skating because one sport is enough (and because gymnastics judges actually get paid to judge at the club level), but I know that I can compare scores across a whole routine in my head with another whole routine, and that I have at least a general idea of where I've placed an athlete. Now, the judges have no idea what other judges are doing and so results can still be a surprise. But they're not duped by the system, no matter how much the big-wigs at the ISU tell you they are.

I'm happy for Adam, but as I was watching the Skate Radio live scoring, I felt a squirm of embarrassment as he overtook Max and Nathan. Something just felt a little bit off, and I think a stricter call (<< IMO) on the 4Lz would have made for a more palatable outcome to many.

It's so subjective though. PCS in particular, which played a huge role in the evening's outcome, is not something that can be tabulated that well from the screen as opposed to live.

IDK! I guess the next couple of international events will help confirm or negate some trends in judging we saw this weekend.

drivingmissdaisy said:

I would have actually been ok with the top 3 in any order. They each have strengths and weaknesses and all three ended up with very close scores. The important thing is that they all made the world team; it would have been a travesty if Nathan was left at home.

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True enough. The right skaters were on the podium. As long as the correct team goes to worlds, I can live with the results. Now, if Nathan is left off the team in favor of Jason, well, I might feel a bit uncomfortable about everything. BUT I am really, really glad I don't have to make that decision.

MoonlightSkater said:

True enough. The right skaters were on the podium. As long as the correct team goes to worlds, I can live with the results. Now, if Nathan is left off the team in favor of Jason, well, I might feel a bit uncomfortable about everything. BUT I am really, really glad I don't have to make that decision.

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You know they already announced the World team, right? Like, an hour ago.

MoonlightSkater said:

True enough. The right skaters were on the podium. As long as the correct team goes to worlds, I can live with the results. Now, if Nathan is left off the team in favor of Jason, well, I might feel a bit uncomfortable about everything. BUT I am really, really glad I don't have to make that decision.

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It has already been announced. No bye for Jason. Nathan is going to junior and senior worlds. Grant gets 4CC with Adam and Max.

MAXSwagg said:

People are bamboozled into thinking Adam is some artist just because he seemingly has "elegance". Even Nathan skates faster than him. After the SP the order should've been:

1. Nathan
2. Max

THEN Adam. Nathan should've even won the PCS. As far as the long, Max should've been under Nathan in PCS, and Adam should've been much closer.

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Uh huh. And I think we can read between the lines what you think you really mean by Adam's "elegance."

waxel said:

Uh huh. And I think we can read between the lines what you think you really mean by Adam's "elegance."

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Your attempt at labeling me as homophobic is pitiful, considering I am a 23-year old gay guy myself. Try again.

karne said:

You know they already announced the World team, right? Like, an hour ago.

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Just saw it. I've been home from work for about a half hour.... and am just catching up on news. Yay for the team choices! I hope Jason can rest, heal fully, and ease back into training big elements so that his body can be strong for next season.

noskates said:

Well you can keep blaming the USFSA or the judges or whatever - but, to imply that the competition was "fixed" would also imply that there was planning beforehand and I don't think anyway wants to go there.

Nathan is a jumping bean. And right now - that's it. His choreography, his performance, his connection to the music, his connection to the audience, just isn't there yet. He had 4 quads and they were beautiful. But I sure don't want a figure skating competition to be based solely on landing multiple quads. There's more to skating than that. MUCH MORE. His time will come. He's still young and still developing.

Max. I would rather see him skating to something less lyrical and balletic where he could be himself. On point, Adam skated circles around him in skating skills, performance skills, and producing a finished product. Max looks uncomfortable out there, like other than the jumps he's just going through some practiced motions.

I don't know how Adam won but I'm really glad he did. I've always liked him and I think he's a complete skater.

There's no way this was going to turn out to some's liking unless Max was on top of the podium. So Worlds is coming up and he has another chance with another set of judges to prove himself.

Ross Miner is sad. He skate a beautiful short program and then did his usual in the long. I felt sorry for him. But other than Nathan, there really isn't a huge standout in the ranks. Of course that can change from year to year.

But I'm really tired of a performance being based on quads. It's a jump! Necessary, probably yes, but it should not be the focus of success.

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Noskates- very well put.

I, for one, have grown weary of the focus on Max's supposed aesthetic improvement. He is better... certainly. But this grand artistic enlightenment that has been touted ad nauseum, just isn't there.

Adam really is, however, elegant (sort of), at least compared to Max and Nathan. Kind of Jeremy Abbott-ish. Another hit or miss guy.

Max -- I don't know. His short program music this year carried the day, while something like "Footloose" would seem to fit him to a tee, but turned out to be a dud. Then again, Tron worked. (?) He is trying hard but many of his movements seem without purpose.

Nathan -- the world is his oyster.

The tech panel got it wrong with Adam's 4lz and 3lz. With correct tech marks, he would have been third, I think. Ninth at Worlds, I suspect.

On the side of improvement, at least his hair was not purple at this event

The men's event. Sport over art? Art over sport? It is a bit psychotic IJS judging. Anyone watching this event would say Adam got the Jeremy award. But he cannot place in the top 6 internationally. Maybe Jason Brown can with one quad because he is unique. Chen can compete with the top men. I think his pcs was so held down. He made history. Goebel had hunched shoulders. Artistry mattered more then. Chen and Aaron have their own style and are jumpers. Why must they try to change Aaron? He is not a swan and why should he have to be?

Nationals is always about favorites, dues paying feeling sorry for skater x having injuries etc. . Liza gets first because of the technical side. We hear all the time about edges and urs. Chen has a lot of abilities. I couldn't see all Adams skate on daily motion so I can't say for sure but Max and Chen are better skaters better jumpers if you look at this as sport and promoting sport in the men's event will help revive skating in North America and Europe.

I always loved Adam and I thought it would come down to these two. Only because Jason is out. But Nathan Chen deserved higher pcs marks in sp and LP. He made history. He should be angry and I think he will out score Adam and Max at worlds if he skates that well. Shoma Uno shows they will give it to a new phenom. I hope Nathan is sent to both worlds.

This is why people are utterly confused by scoring plus judge bias. The results are inverted. The ladies podium was correct. But not the men's. I am art over sport for the ladies but a bit reversed for the men. Chan won with falls due to his superior skating skills. But Yuzu had the jumps and even with falls he got Oly gold on his abilities other days. To me the men who are set apart in no order are Chan Yuzu and Javier and this year Shoma. Nathan Chen is added to that group. He is amazing. He and Max can do well at worlds I believe but Adam who I thought amazing 10 years ago never put it together. He plateaued long ago. This seems a gift. Our men have not been world class except for a few exceptions in a very long time. It does seem a small thin Asian body with the work ethic is producing champions. The exception is Javi who has a great coach and great training situation.

I think Nathan's team should be very upset and I will want to see how he is judged in Boston. I think they should simplify IJS vastly, have different goals for men and women singles. Ice dance cannot turn into a jump off and IJS seemed to level the playing field there. Pairs I don't follow much. I like maybe 4 teams. I can't decide if IJS has added so much to pairs. On first reflection I would say no. 6.0 rewarded tricks difficulty and my favorite pairs were before IJS took hold.

The judges tho need to be transparent. Sekret judging is wrong. I think they are not ready to reward him and that is all wrong. He is a total threat to the status quo at US Nationals. He is a threat to Jason Brown whom they adore. I am the first person to shut the video off if a skater is just a jumper and skates in an graceless way. I don't know why people are not upset at this judging. Nathan is rocketing us men's into the21st century finally.

Nathan Chen was great but I knew the judges would never let him win over favorites like Rippon and Aaron.

I think it's really, really sad that instead of enjoying a performance that was rewarded with a gold medal, people are tearing the judges, the IFS and Adam apart. Geez. No matter who won someone would be unhappy and pointing fingers at everything. Very tiresome. Can y'all just ever enjoy a competition without trying to rewrite history? On this day, at this time, no matter what anybody thinks was right or wrong, a group of judges put in the scores AS THEY SAW THEM and Adam Rippon won.

noskates said:

I think it's really, really sad that instead of enjoying a performance that was rewarded with a gold medal, people are tearing the judges, the IFS and Adam apart. Geez. No matter who won someone would be unhappy and pointing fingers at everything. Very tiresome. Can y'all just ever enjoy a competition without trying to rewrite history? On this day, at this time, no matter what anybody thinks was right or wrong, a group of judges put in the scores AS THEY SAW THEM and Adam Rippon won.

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If it makes you feel better, I'm sure it would have been just as bad (or worse - at least Adam is an Arteest) if Max had won.

To put it simply, I dont think the judges got it right. Hands down, Rippon deserved higher PCS than the others (but 90 PCS is really pushing it). Chen won the TES portion and that was completely justified. Overall, Chen should have won the FS but that didnt happen clearly. If anything, I hope this has been a learning experience for Chen. Not only does it give him a chance to compete against the big boys, but hopefully it will open his eyes. Chen needs to works on his performance, expression, and spins.

How it should have gone down:

Adam wins the PCS. Yes, good.

Chen wins the TES and the free skate. Yes, good.

Max wins overall. Yes, good.

1. Max 2. Adam 3. Nathan.

Done.

Mathman said:

I think they got thee top five exactly right, although I was rooting for Grant Hochstein to get a medal.

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He got a pewter one.

About the judges looking perplexed, that's one of the features of the IJS. The judges just put in their marks in the appropriate boxes and don't know until it's over who they scored for the win.

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Yup.

MoonlightSkater said:

That's what they say about IJS... but these judges know what they're doing. It's entirely possible to have a very good idea of how you are scoring one skater's elements vs. another skater's elements, and especially how you are scoring one skater's PCS marks vs. another skater's PCS marks.

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Yes, but remember there are 13 elements in the men's freeskate and 5 program components, the judges do not know what levels the tech panels call on spins and steps, the base values for jumps can change if there are underrotations or downgrades, or edge calls, not to mention the second half bonus and sequence multipliers, fall deductions if applicable, etc. And the program components are factored, although the junior and senior men's factors are 1 for the SP and 2 for the FS which makes the math much easier than for other disciplines or competition levels.

Judges can have a pretty good sense of who they're individually giving the highest total GOEs+PCS in that program, but I highly doubt any of them can do the mental math quickly and accurately enough to be sure how their own scores in the free program will combine with the base values assigned by the tech panel and Scale of Values and the point differentials carried over from the short program.

Mind you, I have only judged gymnastics

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How does the scoring in gymnastics compare to skating IJS in terms of the number of different scores a judge would need to keep in mind -- or guess if it's officially hidden from them (level calls)?

skateluvr said:

The judges tho need to be transparent. Sekret judging is wrong.

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There's no secret judging at US Nationals. The scores in column 1 belong to Judge 1, the scores in column 2 to judge 2, etc. You know exactly which judges gave which scores.

dorispulaski said:

The tech panel got it wrong with Adam's 4lz and 3lz. With correct tech marks, he would have been third, I think.

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I agree with your opinion regarding the technical panel errors, and also your assessment of where Adam would have otherwise placed (3rd)!

In addition, there seems to have been some unjustifiably low GOE's given to some of Nathan's jump landings/executions when compared to some of Adam's jump-related GOE's. Specific incidents of unequitable jump GOE's being awarded have been pointed out by several forum members and thoroughly discussed in the 2016 US Nationals Senior Men FS thread itself...