US Men: Did the judges have it right? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

US Men: Did the judges have it right?

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I would argue that judges, especially those who began during the 6.0 era, which honestly is probably still most of them, are in the habit of thinking about overall score.

Except the 6.0 scores were arrived at in a holistic way, not by building up points for elements and five different components.

Judges may indeed be thinking "A was best at jumps, B was best at presentation, I think that overall the best performance was from A (or B, or C who was not best at anything but had no weaknesses), which is how they would have thought under 6.0, with more specifics but no official base values etc. But that's completely different from trying to keep to keep track of the IJS scores for elements within a point or two much less tenths and hundredths of points.

It may not be in their job description, but I am quite willing to bet they still are able to do it and that many of them do. Especially when they get curious about why certain scores seem not to match their impressions- that would make me pay more attention!

They won't hear or see the scores that don't match their impressions until after they have finished scoring. They'll hear/see the total scores when they're announced right after the skate, and they'll be able to check the detailed protocols after they get off the judges' stand. But if they have specific questions/curiosity about the event in progress, they won't get any answers at a time that will affect their scores for anyone in that event.

As for the argument that they have too much to think about and not enough time, I say rubbish. They can mark a skill quickly, checking off GOE points as they see them, and then pay attention to other qualities, especially since they can, as you clarify, take notes! Still enough time to be aware of levels, even, though they don't control how those are called. I imagine a program full of high level skills will give an impression that an athlete has better skating skills, so being aware of what was completed might be something they'd want to notice.

The spin levels don't really relate to the skating skills. Maybe certain kinds of difficult entries or exits. Maybe the change of edge feature.
Seeing that a skater is attempting difficult features in a spin and executing them well (or poorly) would likely affect the GOE the judge chooses to award for that spin, as well as the Performance/Execution score.

When judging a spin, all judges need to think about all the positive GOE bullet points and any necessary GOE reductions if applicable and make their decision about what GOE to award.

For a combination spin with flying entry and change of foot, for example, all that shows on the screen is FCCoSp. The base values for that general code range from 1.1 (two positions, no features, "V" designation for inadequate fly and/or failure to reach the landing position within 2 revolutions and hold it for 2 revolutions) to 3.5 (three positions, four features, full credit).

Will even the judges who also have tech panel appointments remember the base values for each possible permutation of level, number of positions, and inadequate fly/landing, and also the values of the positive and negative GOEs (0.5 and 0.3 each, respectively)?

Or even remember the base value differences between that and the FCSp (flying camel), FCCSp (flying camel with change of foot), and FCoSp (combo spin with flying entry and no change of foot), depending what different skaters choose to do as their freeskate flying spin?

For step sequences, the features are more directly related to skating skills, and the judges probably will be thinking about how the skills demonstrated in the sequence will affect the SS component as well as the GOE for the sequence. They will notice if the skater is turning in both directions and doing a variety of difficult turns and steps and using their upper body and whether they do several difficult one-foot turns on the same foot in succession. But will they be counting exactly how many of each kind of turn and step they do and how much of the time they turn in each direction? And will they remember that the base values for level B through level 4 range from 1.5 to 3.9, and the positive GOEs are the same for levels B-3 but higher for 4, and the negative GOEs are lower for levels B and 1, same as the positive ones for level 2, and same as the level 4 positive for both levels 3 and 4?

A skater missing credit for one or two turns not on clear edges could make the difference between level 2 and level 4 without necessarily affecting the judge's GOE. So even a judge who had memorized the features and the scale of values but didn't see those specific edges as too flat wouldn't know if their +2 would put the score for that sequence at 3.6 or 5.3. They're more likely thinking "Good musical phrasing and nuances, choreographed to the theme of the program, good energy, good flow, mostly clear edges" and not "Three counters, three rockers but all the same direction, two loops, was that a bracket or a counter?, does that count as twizzles or traveling threes?" Counting the turns is the tech panel's job, not the judges'.

You asked about whether or not gymnastics has any sort of PCS. The short answer is "not really." The longer answer is that there are a few potential tenths worth of deductions available each for artistry (on floor and beam), dynamics, and amplitude. If you thought a gymnast presented a very poor quality routine overall with no real attempt at artistry and little evidence of physical conditioning relative to the skills thrown you would be able to take about a point off their score between these three deductions, but I have never, ever seen that done. More likely you'll see a tenth off here and a tenth off there, totaling maybe .2 to .5. Not generally enough to make a very big difference except, maybe, if you use them to differentiate between event finalists, who probably have less to take in these areas anyways.

Good to know, thanks.
 

Olympic

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
As someone posted, Adam' 4z is always downgraded and not UR internationally, but I don't believe they showed slo-mo of it on NBC. If it should've been called as a downgrade, then Max should have won.

While we are discussing Max, he has performed that LP with better skating skill and I think he got a little nervous after Nathan Chen making history and chose to concentrate on the jumps. I applaud him for having the mental toughness to hold it together. And I've been harping on this - Max needs to turn one of those 2x's into a 3flip. He would've won despite it all w/ a competent 3flip!
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Someone I was discussing with yesterday mentioned that Max often gets edge calls on his flip and that's why he didn't plan one here.

3F with e call has 3.7 base value; 2A is 3.3 base value, not enough difference to give him the win.

If you anticipate -1 GOE for the flip and +1 for the double axel, then the axel is worth more.

And no, I don't think the judges are keeping track of those numbers during the program while they're awarding their GOEs and PCS. But I do think the skaters and coaches plan their programs with them in mind.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
And no, I don't think the judges are keeping track of those numbers during the program while they're awarding their GOEs and PCS. But I do think the skaters and coaches plan their programs with them in mind.

Those sheep are too stupid to add. They are told to put +3 for certain skaters as base GOE, and make take off 1 or 2 if there's bad landing. They are told to give certain skaters 8.5 and 9 regardless.
Don't think those sheep are the biggest problem. The puppet master pulling the string in the back is the problem.
 

Olympic

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Someone I was discussing with yesterday mentioned that Max often gets edge calls on his flip and that's why he didn't plan one here.

3F with e call has 3.7 base value; 2A is 3.3 base value, not enough difference to give him the win.

If you anticipate -1 GOE for the flip and +1 for the double axel, then the axel is worth more.

And no, I don't think the judges are keeping track of those numbers during the program while they're awarding their GOEs and PCS. But I do think the skaters and coaches plan their programs with them in mind.

OK. I also discussed the 3flip w/ someone on another board who thought Max got the correct edge, but your explanation is definitely plausible: Why else would Max do 2 2x's. Speaking of jumps, I wonder if MAx would be amenable to a 3x-2t in the bonus section
 

tjskate

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Those sheep are too stupid to add. They are told to put +3 for certain skaters as base GOE, and make take off 1 or 2 if there's bad landing. They are told to give certain skaters 8.5 and 9 regardless.
Don't think those sheep are the biggest problem. The puppet master pulling the string in the back is the problem.

I'm sorry, but this is just insulting to people who have spent YEARS devoting themselves to the sport. Trial judging, judging low-level tests, traveling to get judging experience, gradually working up to Regionals/Sectionals and finally National appointments. Do you realize they do NOT get paid? Yes, they get travel expenses, but this is a volunteer position. The judges I know are passionate about the sport and dedicated to supporting it (and very intelligent people, I might add.) They are not "told" what type of points to assign, they are only told by the tech panel the levels or revolutions of the element.

Yes, I know there have been judges who have been found to be corrupt, but please don't brush them all with the same tainted brush.

<Rant off>
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
tjskate :agree:

It must be really disconcerting for the skaters if they read threads like this. Hopefully they don't!
 

Eddie Lee

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
The tech panel got it wrong with Adam's 4lz and 3lz. With correct tech marks, he would have been third, I think. Ninth at Worlds, I suspect.

On the side of improvement, at least his hair was not purple at this event

Doris is one hundred percent correct! Thanks to her for putting it so succinctly.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
tjskate :agree:

It must be really disconcerting for the skaters if they read threads like this. Hopefully they don't!

Disconcerting for the skaters, yes, but imagine how a judge stumbling across this thread would feel to be called a "stupid sheep who can't add". It's one thing to state the technical panel got it wrong - because they did. But to make a statement like that, that's just vile.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
Karne, totally agree with you! But, this whole thread has pretty much told the judges they (1) don't know what they're doing; (2) awarded the wrong skater; (3) screwed up big time; and (4) had some sort of prearranged agreement on who should win before skates even hit the ice. :noshake::noshake:

I know it's like this after just about every competition because someone's favorite always doesn't win. Wish we could just enjoy a competition and the figure skating without all the second-guessing afterwards. Won't happen unfortunately.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I'm sorry, but this is just insulting to people who have spent YEARS devoting themselves to the sport. Trial judging, judging low-level tests, traveling to get judging experience, gradually working up to Regionals/Sectionals and finally National appointments. Do you realize they do NOT get paid? Yes, they get travel expenses, but this is a volunteer position. The judges I know are passionate about the sport and dedicated to supporting it (and very intelligent people, I might add.) They are not "told" what type of points to assign, they are only told by the tech panel the levels or revolutions of the element.

Yes, I know there have been judges who have been found to be corrupt, but please don't brush them all with the same tainted brush.

<Rant off>

Yeah yeah. They volunteered their time and worked so hard. They went through the system gradually. Then they passionately gave Mirai 6s and Gracie 9s in components in the SP. When you volunteer to do a ****** job, you actually do more harm than good. So no, passionately stupid is still stupid.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Country
United-States
... this whole thread has pretty much told the judges they (1) don't know what they're doing; (2) awarded the wrong skater; (3) screwed up big time; and (4) had some sort of prearranged agreement on who should win before skates even hit the ice. :noshake::noshake:

I know it's like this after just about every competition because someone's favorite always doesn't win. Wish we could just enjoy a competition and the figure skating without all the second-guessing afterwards.

It's always possible for the better angels of our nature to get the upper hand. Don't give up hope!

I was in the arena at the competition, and the judges got the result exactly right.

Nathan with his four quads was incredible, but I felt little connection between him and his music or his audience. Max tried his hardest and had all the right moves to create artistry, but that isn't his strong point, and it felt constrained. I do agree with IN commentator who said it's great that this year Max is doing 4-3, whereas it used to more often come out 4-2; and I expect him to be making similar progress in his artistry every season. I agree that Nathan's 4 quads may have unnerved Max, since he's used to being "the jumper" at nationals.

Adam's skate was a superior quality skate in every way. His 3A was swifter and more beautiful than anyone else's. It looked effortless. The fall on the 4z didn't disrupt the flow and beauty of the program. His connection with, and interpretation of the Beatles music were sublime. (So glad he switched to "Blackbird", my favorite, earlier in the season!) His pure joy in skating communicated effortlessly with the audience. To any spectator who isn't just counting up rotations or measuring URs, there is nothing better than seeing and FEELING how happy a skater is to be skating to that music, for that audience, in that moment. That's exactly what Adam did. It's exactly what the term performance value means.

After reading this whole thread, which has been very informative (thanks especially to gkelly), I feel that the IJS got it mostly right, in translating almost intangible qualities to measurable numbers. That's confirmed by my experience of the other FS too. Tarah and Danny had the two skates of the whole event, could not be better. If they hadn't won, it would be a travesty. Mirai had an impressive FS, but I'm sorry to the Mirai promoters -- her skating did not come up to the quality of Ashley's FS, so there was nothing unfair or pre-planned about the bronze-pewter result. I think Ashley's SP was underscored (catch Johnny Weir's comments), but I'm not quibbling; because the result of the event was IMO correct. Polina had two clean skates and has awesome consistency, but Gracie and Ashley both outshone her. We've got the right ladies' team for Boston.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Yeah yeah. They volunteered their time and worked so hard. They went through the system gradually. Then they passionately gave Mirai 6s and Gracie 9s in components in the SP.

Ladies' short program protocol

No judge gave Mirai 6s and Gracie 9s for the same component in the SP.

Remember, the judges are not anonymous at US domestic events, so we can compare each judge's column from one skater to another.

Judge 1 is the only judge who gave Gracie any 9s at all -- two 9.00s for Skating Skills and Interpretation. The rest of the components were in the 8s.

He did give Mirai 6.75 for Transitions. The rest were in the 7s.

Judge 7 also gave Mirai 6.75 for Transitions, and Judges 4 and 5 gave her several scores in the 6s, as low as 6.5 (i.e., halfway between "above average" and "good"). None of those judges gave Gracie any 9s.

If you look at the averages of all the judges, Gracie's components ranged from 7.96 to 8.32, and Mirai's from 6.96 to 7.46.
So approximately one point difference on average.

Gracie's highest component score was Choreography and her lowest that day was Performance/Execution. Mirai's highest was Skating Skills and her lowest was Transitions.

Now, do you want to look at the program components explanations and at the performances and explain why you believe Mirai's scores should have been closer to or even above Gracie's on the basis of those official criteria? Or is your outrage driven purely by emotion, gut feeling, 6.0-style expectations, not analysis?
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States

Now, do you want to look at the [URL="http://usfigureskating.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf"]program components explanations
and at the performances and explain why you believe Mirai's scores should have been closer to or even above Gracie's on the basis of those official criteria? Or is your outrage driven purely by emotion, gut feeling, 6.0-style expectations, not analysis?

Well, since it seems like a near-impossibility for the judges to weigh all of those official criteria in the few seconds they have to judge, it's asking a bit much to ask someone to go point by point here. I don't think the difference in Mirai's and Gracie's P/E, I and even SS is all that different. Transitions? Who knows? Choreo? Why is the skater being scored on someone else's work? I also don't think Gracie should be averaging 9 in PCS, like she did in her long program. I think there is plenty of gut-feeling/ranking/placing going on with PCS scoring. It was a noble idea to require absolute marks, but in practice it's still a lot like 6.0.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Its America that max needs a wake up call to be an artist but no one ever needs a wake up call to get a quad.


I hope this is a wake up call to Max. In the middle of his program he stops, gestures to the sky, turns around. The music is rising and he's kiind of not doing anything. It's dead space. While he is doing that others are performing difficult foot work, great spins, etc.. These are technical points also. And, unfortunately they added up to a second place for Max. As someone said his jumping is not at such a high level that he can short change the rest. The atristry is a whole other question.

About international judging. It's going through of phase of really pushing jumping. People have complained all season about jumpers being given high PCS so they can win. I don't think it is wrong for USFS to balance this with a reminder that figure skating is many different skills and abilities. USFS is stil an important voice in the sport. I suspect this debate about the place of jumping will go on for a while.

Does anyone know how Nathan is? Did they release him from the hospital?
 
Last edited:

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Ladies' short program protocol

No judge gave Mirai 6s and Gracie 9s for the same component in the SP.

So judge 4 gave Mirai: 7.0 6.5 6.75 6.5 6.5
Is this the same judge 4 who gives Gracie: 8.25 8.0 8.25 8.5 8.25?
Do you want to look at the PCS explanation again and explain to this judge 4? What exactly did Gracie project in the SP? Didn't most people saw fear and uncomfortable in her throughout the program? Outrage is not driven on anything but ******** judging from idiots.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, since it seems like a near-impossibility for the judges to weigh all of those official criteria in the few seconds they have to judge, it's asking a bit much to ask someone to go point by point here.

It's not that difficult for experienced trained judges to consider most of the official criteria in the few minutes (during the program and then while the tech panel is reviewing elements afterward) they have to come up with program component scores.

If it's impossible for you, you need more practice. :)

I got fascinated with the process of judging skating about 20 years ago and tried to learn as much as I could, first under 6.0 and then IJS, and practice any chance I get.

I don't always agree totally with the results or with any one judge, but in general the results make sense to me because I'm trying to look for the same things the official judges are looking at. If I disagree, especially when I'm watching on video rather than live, I chalk it up to the (majority of) judges having more practice and knowledge than I do, especially those who were higher level skaters than I ever was, the difference between live and video or even just different viewing angles, and sometimes just honest difference of opinion.

I don't think the difference in Mirai's and Gracie's P/E, I and even SS is all that different. Transitions? Who knows? Choreo? Why is the skater being scored on someone else's work? I also don't think Gracie should be averaging 9 in PCS, like she did in her long program. I think there is plenty of gut-feeling/ranking/placing going on with PCS scoring. It was a noble idea to require absolute marks, but in practice it's still a lot like 6.0.

So judge 4 gave Mirai: 7.0 6.5 6.75 6.5 6.5
Is this the same judge 4 who gives Gracie: 8.25 8.0 8.25 8.5 8.25?

Yes. No anonymity/randomization at US Nationals.

What exactly did Gracie project in the SP? Didn't most people saw fear and uncomfortable in her throughout the program?

I gotta disagree. Personally, I saw more projection from Gracie and more fear/tentativeness from Mirai. That may have had something to do with boot issues, whenever the problem started, if she was feeling less secure on her skates.

For one example, look at the step sequences of each. Who was looking up and out at the audience more, and who was more often looking down at the ice or into the near distance immediately in front of herself?

Nagasu

Gold


You may have seen something different, but I don't think you can speak for "most people."



If we want to discuss these or other ladies' programs further we should probably start a new thread.
 
Last edited:
Top