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Thread: 2016 Four Continents Mens Free Skate

  1. #1081
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    My question is: if the whole world already knows Patrick's skating leaves you cold, because you keep telling us over and over and over, why don't you just stop watching him or at least put on a sweater when you do?

  2. #1082
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    What a shame.

    This is why mens figure skating is no longer a sport to me: Jin is way better than Patrick Chan. When you land 4 quad (including a quad Lutz) and 2 3A, even the gap in the artistry can't justify a defeat here.

    Yuzuru, Patrick and Javier 's scores are becoming a little ridiculous at this point: they always earn some monstre scores even with a fall or a program not difficult enough to win.

    It is like: Atletico Madrid beats Barcelona 5-1 but Barcelona wins because of the reputation. What?

  3. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post
    What a shame.

    This is why mens figure skating is no longer a sport to me: Jin is way better than Patrick Chan. When you land 4 quad (including a quad Lutz) and 2 3A, even the gap in the artistry can't justify a defeat here.

    Yuzuru, Patrick and Javier 's scores are becoming a little ridiculous at this point: they always earn some monstre scores even with a fall or a program not difficult enough to win.

    It is like: Atletico Madrid beats Barcelona 5-1 but Barcelona wins because of the reputation. What?
    It's still figure skating, not a jumping contest. Jin is getting good scores for what he's delivering and he's improving, but he's not a complete skater yet. And he isn't doing a triple loop (I hold that against him ).
    So I basically want to say (coming back to the soccer match): I think we have seen a different game.

  4. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post
    What a shame.

    This is why mens figure skating is no longer a sport to me: Jin is way better than Patrick Chan. When you land 4 quad (including a quad Lutz) and 2 3A, even the gap in the artistry can't justify a defeat here.

    Yuzuru, Patrick and Javier 's scores are becoming a little ridiculous at this point: they always earn some monstre scores even with a fall or a program not difficult enough to win.

    It is like: Atletico Madrid beats Barcelona 5-1 but Barcelona wins because of the reputation. What?
    Patrick, Javi and Yuzuru are all capable of doing 4 quads in an LP, though not a 4Lz, in a program as empty as Boyang's outside of jumps. But Boyang is not able to perform Patrick's, Javi's, Yuzuru's, or Denis' program with fewer quads.
    Last edited by Violet Bliss; 02-24-2016 at 01:16 PM.

  5. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivley View Post
    ... Quite a few people went on to say that they were still not fans of Patrick after that skate, which is fine but doesn't indicate that their indifference was overcome. ...
    What I meant is that their indifference was overcome sufficiently for them to acknowledge certain positive qualities of that specific skate and to express some praise/appreciation for that specific skate.

    General response to your other comments:

    As I said above, my big-picture opinion is that the less negativity anywhere on GS, the better.

    But I don't agree with the demonization in this thread of one particular phrase that does not strike me as particularly egregious.

    And as someone whose views sometimes have been in the minority in other threads, I do not feel that it is inherently wrong for anyone to express a minority view.
    I have found myself in the position of expressing a minority view -- with the intention of expressing it only once -- and then unexpectedly explaining it further in additional posts b/c multiple people give opposing replies to my first post.

    All of that said, I hope that this post will be my last in this thread .
    Last edited by ice coverage; 02-24-2016 at 01:44 PM.

  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post
    What a shame.

    This is why mens figure skating is no longer a sport to me: Jin is way better than Patrick Chan. When you land 4 quad (including a quad Lutz) and 2 3A, even the gap in the artistry can't justify a defeat here.

    Yuzuru, Patrick and Javier 's scores are becoming a little ridiculous at this point: they always earn some monstre scores even with a fall or a program not difficult enough to win.

    It is like: Atletico Madrid beats Barcelona 5-1 but Barcelona wins because of the reputation. What?


  7. #1087
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    Thanks again, golden411icecoverage for your thoughts. No need to reply to me here, as I know these discussions can get time-consuming.

    Quote Originally Posted by golden411icecoverage View Post
    As I said above, my big-picture opinion is that the less negativity anywhere on GS, the better.
    Yes, please! A kinder, gentler GS forum will benefit fans and the sport as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by golden411icecoverage View Post
    But I don't agree with the demonization in this thread of one particular phrase that does not strike me as particularly egregious.
    I don't think we were demonizing it. At first I was curious about why it seemed to be used so often by people who disliked Patrick, so I got some excellent insights about that. Then someone else wanted to know because some people interjected this oft-repeated phrase in the middle of a stream of celebratory posts for Patrick, as if they were trying to pour cold water on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by golden411icecoverage View Post
    And as someone whose views sometimes have been in the minority in other threads, I do not feel that it is inherently wrong for anyone to express a minority view.
    I have found myself in the position of expressing a minority view -- with the intention of expressing it only once -- and then unexpectedly explaining it further in additional posts b/c multiple people give opposing replies to my first post.
    There are those who think minority views ought to be bashed and stamped out, and then they ridicule the person with the minority view for being "defensive". We ought to be able to express support for a skater without being put on the defensive and having to explain ourselves with multiple additional posts. It is exhausting and demoralizing, and doesn't give a good impression of FS fans.
    Last edited by vivley; 02-24-2016 at 02:20 PM.

  8. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivley View Post
    ... some people interjected this oft-repeated phrase in the middle of a stream of celebratory posts for Patrick, as if they were trying to pour cold water on it. ...
    The way I see it: This thread is a competition thread. Those who want to celebrate the winner should feel free to do so. Those who want to express other opinions also are entitled to do so.
    Patrick happened to be the winner in this case, and I am delighted for him -- but the outcomes of other comps sometimes have left me unsatisfied. And I do not think it is wrong for reactions other than "I want to celebrate the winner" to be posted in a competition thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by vivley View Post
    ... There are those who think minority views ought to be bashed and stamped out, and then they ridicule the person with the minority view for being "defensive". ...
    Want to clarify that in this thread, the minority (IMO) view has been that Patrick "leaves me cold."
    What I was saying in my previous post is that it seems to me that the repetition of the phrase by one person came about b/c multiple posts objected to the phrase, which led to additional replies from the person to explain/defend its usage.

    I believe that those questioning its usage stirred up repetition of the phrase that they did not like. I do not think the person deliberately set out to post repetitions ad nauseam.

    Quote Originally Posted by vivley View Post
    ... We ought to be able to express support for a skater without being put on the defensive and having to explain ourselves with multiple additional posts. ...
    Agree with you here.
    So once again, I hope this post really will be my last one in this thread. [I know you had told me no need to reply -- it was my own choice to clarify.]
    Last edited by ice coverage; 02-24-2016 at 03:14 PM.

  9. #1089
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411icecoverage View Post
    Agree with you here.
    So once again, I hope this post really will be my last one in this thread. [I know you had told me no need to reply -- it was my own choice to clarify.]
    Whew, glad we agree on something! I think our differences in opinion stem from the timeline and context of our topic of discussion. You are mainly talking about this thread and the posts that happened in the last few pages, but I am talking about the same thing in a broader context.

    For example, on this thread, it is true that the minority view after Patrick won was "he leaves me cold". But historically that seems to have been one of the most common disapproving comments of him expressed on GS. So to see it expressed again after he skated his very best at 4CC is very perplexing and disconcerting.

    I am also talking about good sportsmanship. Of course there will be various opinions on a competition thread, but the way they are expressed matters. Earlier in this thread someone said that although Patrick's performance still didn't excite them, they were happy for their friend who loved it. Now, that's good sportsmanship by a fan.

    Hope this clarifies what I was saying a bit more. Thanks for the good discussion!

  10. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by psusanne View Post
    It's still figure skating, not a jumping contest. Jin is getting good scores for what he's delivering and he's improving, but he's not a complete skater yet. And he isn't doing a triple loop (I hold that against him ).
    So I basically want to say (coming back to the soccer match): I think we have seen a different game.
    I see a rough Patrick chan in the SP and clean in the LP against a clean Jin Boyang both in the SP and LP.

    Patrick Chan wins. This doesn't make sense to me.

    The technical side (that is not just jumps but also spins and steps sequence) of the competition shows what you are capable of, and if you do way way better than your opponent, the PCS shouldn't be so relevant.

    In this case Patrick deserves win the FS, but overall Jin was way better here at the 4CC.
    Last edited by Tolstoj; 02-25-2016 at 06:35 AM.

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post
    I see a rough Patrick chan in the SP and clean in the LP against a clean Jin Boyang both in the SP and LP.

    Patrick Chan wins. This doesn't make sense to me.

    The technical side (that is not just jumps but also spins and steps sequence) of the competition shows what you are capable of, and if you do way way better than your opponent, the PCS shouldn't be so relevant.

    In this case Patrick deserves win the FS, but overall Jin was way better here at the 4CC.
    If it doesn't make sense to you just look at the score sheet.
    Patrick only received about 23 points higher PCS, it should be more than that imo. It's true that his SP wasn't very good, but it wasn't exactly bad either. And Jin's spins and step sequence are only mediocre. So you can't say that Jin's better technically, because he isn't. He's the better quad jumper (because when you look at the jumps that both Jin and Chan do, Chan's are better) and Chan is better at everything else, spins, steps and choreographic sequence.
    Sum it all up and you have Chan as the clear winner imho. In the end his lead is less than a point, I'm glad for it, because it should be more than that in my books.

  12. #1092
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    Quote Originally Posted by psusanne View Post
    If it doesn't make sense to you just look at the score sheet.
    Patrick only received about 23 points higher PCS, it should be more than that imo. It's true that his SP wasn't very good, but it wasn't exactly bad either. And Jin's spins and step sequence are only mediocre. So you can't say that Jin's better technically, because he isn't. He's the better quad jumper (because when you look at the jumps that both Jin and Chan do, Chan's are better) and Chan is better at everything else, spins, steps and choreographic sequence.
    Sum it all up and you have Chan as the clear winner imho. In the end his lead is less than a point, I'm glad for it, because it should be more than that in my books.
    Patrick's 4T and 4T3T are biggest in this competition. Overall his jump quality is the most powerful here in this competition.

  13. #1093
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    As stated many times by many, we just cannot compare apples and oranges. We can't either force someone who never eat raw oysters before to eat them, though oyster lovers would scream.

    What I admire watching Mens competition at 4CC is many guys went for quads, though some appeared a bit nervously but without any hesitation, because they knew they had to if they want go up in the standings after SP. WHO made them to think that way? Patrick and Boyang did, all skaters must have appreciated for being able to compete at this 4CC. I believe Patrick's out-of-this-world-like skating must have inspired young skaters dreaming they themselves would like to skate like him some day, AND Boyang's jaw-dropping jump content must have motivated them to train even harder once back to home rink.

    Though his skating is not my cup of tea yet (I repeat, YET!), Boyang is the dual winner here in my book, tbh. He didn't have enough luck that night just because he had to compete against someone like the 3 time world champion and the reigning Olympic silver medalist. He's only 18yo. Give him some time to mature, artistry may come later. However, Han and Boyang sure need better programs with much much better choreography next season, in order to be competitive with the likes of Yuzu, Javi and Patrick.

    re our Japanese boys, they all did good job, I think.
    Shoma missed all three quads at SP and FS, but still scored quite high TES because of his good spins and steps. Has anyone noticed Shoma went for 3A AND 4T in warming up right before his free skate, while awaiting Grant's score to come up? I didn't like it. He landed them perfectly but he could have missed it, then had to start free with some doubt/anxiety. What if he would have missed it and got injured? It's not a local competition or junior competition anymore. He now competes on the senior cirsuit. A serious business, so to speak. He needs to save his energy and concentration for the actual performance. I hope Shoma realized it by watching Patrick's free skate full of fire and determination. He ended up missing the podium finish that was very probable/reachable, but it was a very good learning experience for him as heading into his debuting Worlds in March, I think.

    Congrats to Takahito for breaking his previous Personal Best Socres; all of SP, FS and Total. Such great achievements here. He redeemed himself from the disappointing Nats, and proved he still has it and is still there in front of int'l judges. Particularly I am happy for Takahito for mid 8s PCS.

    Keiji did great, too. He used to give up once he missed the opening 4S before, but he didn't give up at all at thsi 4CC. Loved to see he's working on presentaion/performing these days. I could see HOW he wants to sell the programs to judges and audience. Very expressive and musical choreography, thanks to Massimo!

    As heading into the Worlds, I get excited because it's not all about team Brian (Yuzu-vs-Javi) anymore, we've got so many options this season!; Denis, Patrick, Shoma, Boyang, Han, Max, Kolyada, etc., thanks to these hard-working and fun boys with different skating styles and strengths of their own.

  14. #1094
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    I guess Chan's performance left me cold, too. After all, it took awhile for those chills and goosebumps to go away.

  15. #1095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carshalton View Post
    I guess Chan's performance left me cold, too. After all, it took awhile for those chills and goosebumps to go away.


    ::

    eta: http://imgur.com/ajgcgSP
    Last edited by Violet Bliss; 02-25-2016 at 02:07 PM.

  16. #1096
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carshalton View Post
    I guess Chan's performance left me cold, too. After all, it took awhile for those chills and goosebumps to go away.

    How can I stay cold after laughing so much?!

  17. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstoj View Post
    I see a rough Patrick chan in the SP and clean in the LP against a clean Jin Boyang both in the SP and LP.

    Patrick Chan wins. This doesn't make sense to me.

    The technical side (that is not just jumps but also spins and steps sequence) of the competition shows what you are capable of, and if you do way way better than your opponent, the PCS shouldn't be so relevant.

    In this case Patrick deserves win the FS, but overall Jin was way better here at the 4CC.
    You answered your own question in your post. The technical side is not just the jumps, which is the one and only place that Jin has an edge over Chan. Jin's spins are terrible and his step sequences are like something below novice level compared to Chan. Jin displays zero transitions. Technically, besides the jumps, Jin is weak. And Patrick is plainly and hugely superior in the PCS. Actually Jin was massively overscored on his PCS (8s was ridiculous. High sixes, 7s at the most is what they should have been), so the gap should have been wider. Quads don't trump everything else.

  18. #1098
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interspectator View Post
    No skater however great, however perfect or talented or charming or artistic or brilliant can possibly please all the skating fans. A notoriously persnickety lot we are. If a skater can even appeal to a general majority of fans they can count themselves a rare success and forget the rest.
    Alexei Urmanov...there....I said it.....

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