who should skate to SWAN LAKE?

Didn't Sasha flap a little in her footwork? I thought at one point and then took it out.

diver chick said:

When I think of all the beautiful music that is at the disposal of these skaters I constantly think why do they have to rehash the same tired old stuff!!

In the movie 'The Cutting Edge' there is a scene where the two are trying to convince each other why their music choice is better and the bit that always sticks in my head is when the guy says something along the lines of Mozart is tired, dozens of skaters are going to be lining up the same boring crap, lets be different, lets kick some ***. Okay I wasn't all that enamoured with the music choice he made but the sentiment is there!! I am tired of people using the same music season after season! Be different, Rachmaninov did not write one symphony, Mozart did not compse one concerto........ Where is the Shostakovic, Berlioz, Grieg, who incidently composed more than just the Peer Gynt suite the list goes on and on!!

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ITA!. You'd think that besides a few movie soundtracks and the limited repetoire of the aforementioned classical composers there are no pieces of music fit for skating. Are coaches, choreographers, and skaters that limited that they can think of no other pieces of music to skate to? I'd hate to view their CD collection.

skatinglady 2001

I don't know about anyone else, but I think that Sasha Cohen and Oksana Baiul's Swan Lakes are masterpieces

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Baiul's SL is a masterpiece. Cohen's is not a masterpiece, not even close.

Joesitz said:

Sasha did an excellent job with SL, imo. She did not make like a swan but rather interpreted the music as a concert piece without the ballet story.

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That is rather confusing to me, because I read many Cohen fans including skatepixie were telling us that her program was so good because she was portraying both swans. I have never been too impressed with PIT's ballet music as a concert piece. PIT was excellent at melody, as far as orchestration goes, he was OK. But then SL was a ballet, and it was meant to accompany movements, and a story line. Cohen skated well enough for all her placements last season. The only time I thought judges were a bit generous was in skate Canada, I thought Arakawa's lp deserved to be placed ahead. The rest of the times, I thought her placement was fair. If Cohen was skating to a concert piece, why was the original costume filled with feather and swan tail motif?

. Not bad for a lady skating to SL and not flapping her arms!

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I don't believe the excellence of a program is judged by the absence of flapping arm choreography . Some skaters are so exceptional with their expressive arms, e.g. Oksana, and Ota, it is a crime for their choreographers to take out the flapping if they are skating to SL. OTOH, I think some skaters will be wise not to add arm flapping. IIRC you have given us a good assessment of Ota vs Cohen in terms of arms last summer. I think Yukina will be wonderful with arm flapping. I also love Arakawa's flapping with her techno swan program, suit the music so well. Cohen's choreographers TT, and Robin were very smart in not adding arm flap to her program.

wonder if she is the only one who did not flap the arms?

Joe

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Did Fumie flap arms? Anyway some skaters are wise not to. JMHO, arm flapping to SL is like coloratura to bel canto singing (Can't imagine anyone singing casta diva from Norma without it). It is almost mutually inclusive. Some skaters / singers do not do the best job, but that does not mean it shouldn't be done. In case of e.g. AP, I am pleased that she tried. AP's swan lake overall choreography was not stellar, but on the arm flapping part, she did a good job, I don't think e.g. Cohen could flap better than AP. Of course the smart middle of the road approach is to avoid arm flap during SL.

Joesitz said:

Not bad for a lady skating to SL and not flapping her arms!

I wonder if she is the only one who did not flap the arms?

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I don't think Bonaly flapped in 1996.

I know Butyrskaya had some swan motifs in 1999, but I don't remember whether thye included arm flapping.

I agree with pretty much everybody. This music has been done to death and so has its story, and JIMHO, swans are big time over-rated. Once you've seen several people skate to the same scene (nearly every skater uses the famous scene) it gets annoying after so many. And I LOVE Tchaikovsky LOL. I prefer Sleeping Beauty to Swan Lake, PBT is doing the ballet in February, and last year they did SL, but I wasn't able to go. This time, I'll go if it kills me. Even if I have to steal a car and drive it myself LOL!!!!

It would be a nice change to have a break from Swan Lake for at least one year. I bet we see at least one during the Olympic season. I hope it isn't Michelle.

Ladybug

I have to say that I think Alexei Urmanov did a very good Swan lake but I still think it is over used music

Well I wouldn't exactly say that Sasha didn't "make like a swan" look at the dress. LOL and there was defintely some arm flapping going on. I distinctly remmber it during the fan sprial and I know it was a few other places as well. But it was still a good program, arm flaps don't make a program bad.

I don't belive that either Fumie or Rudi had arm flaps in thier version of SL.

Flap about Swan Lake

BravesSkateFan said:

I don't belive that either Fumie or Rudi had arm flaps in their version of SL.

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Not sure about Fumie, but Rudi definitely didn't -- he was portraying evil Count Von Rothbart. Though I wonder if he were an eligible now if he would dare attempt interpreting Mathew Bourne's audacious twist on Swan Lake, where the swans are male? http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/swanlake.html

The reason why Swan Lake, Turandot, Carmen, etc. are so overused is because they are soooo easy to skate to. You get to be dramatic, angsty, cliched, etc. with music that's easy on the ears in the background, and the judges will claim that you are a true artist.

Great point, VIETgrlTerifa. There is a reason why the same few peices of music get recycled over and over.

RTureck, that was an interesting and balanced analysis. To me, the point about Sasha doing "both swans" refers mainly to her costume, not so much to her choreography or execution. I thought the black and white outfit was a knockout. But I can't say that she skated half of the program "good" and the other half "evil."

Now that I think of it, it is pretty rare for a program to try to interpret evil. Alexei Urmanov did an appropriately sinister Phantom of the Opera. Elvis Stoiko did a cool Winter Warlock in a special with Dorothy Hamill and Tonya Kwiatkowski a few years ago that stuck in my mind.

I would like to see Chait and Sakhnovsky interpret Dracula, with him as the Count and her as the beautiful innocent victim.

Or maybe someone will do "Wicked on Ice," after the Broadway musical, LOL.

Mathman

One of the things about the "two swan" costume and Sasha's TT Swan Lake that always bothered me was the lack of character interpretation. There was SUCH a wealth of drama there that was never even touched on--the sad white swan, in love with the Prince and yearning to be free of the sorcerer, the evil black swan seductress who foils her escape, the tragic ending. The beaming Sasha as she struck a pose in her spiral didn't seem to belong to any character at all.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

The reason why Swan Lake, Turandot, Carmen, etc. are so overused is because they are soooo easy to skate to. You get to be dramatic, angsty, cliched, etc. with music that's easy on the ears in the background, and the judges will claim that you are a true artist.

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Great point.

But OTOH, some skaters can always bring new things to a supposed over-used piece.

Have to agree with Mathman, too. It is really quite funny seeing some fans argueing for Cohen's Swan Lake being so great for the reason that "Sasha portrays both swans" when only her costume is actually doing the work.

Mathman said:

Great point, VIETgrlTerifa. There is a reason why the same few peices of music get recycled over and over.

RTureck, that was an interesting and balanced analysis. To me, the point about Sasha doing "both swans" refers mainly to her costume, not so much to her choreography or execution. I thought the black and white outfit was a knockout. But I can't say that she skated half of the program "good" and the other half "evil."

Now that I think of it, it is pretty rare for a program to try to interpret evil. Alexei Urmanov did an appropriately sinister Phantom of the Opera. Elvis Stoiko did a cool Winter Warlock in a special with Dorothy Hamill and Tonya Kwiatkowski a few years ago that stuck in my mind.

I would like to see Chait and Sakhnovsky interpret Dracula, with him as the Count and her as the beautiful innocent victim.

Or maybe someone will do "Wicked on Ice," after the Broadway musical, LOL.

Mathman

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Oh Mathman, I was always partial to Chait and Sakhovsky skating to "Edward Scissorhands" He doesn't even need the makeup that Johnny Depp did


About "Wicked on Ice" Ohh...I can see it now! Glinda needs to be perky and fun but with depth, and Elphaba needs to be dark and a bit emotionally distant.
Hmmm...Tanith Belbin as Glinda and...Galina Maniachenko with dyed black hair as Elphaba aka the Wicked Witch of the West? lol. I doubt they would be interested, but you never know.
Hmmm, if Dick can't skate anymore...maybe Toller Cranston as the Wizard...and Carol Heiss as Madame Morrible.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

The reason why Swan Lake, Turandot, Carmen, etc. are so overused is because they are soooo easy to skate to. You get to be dramatic, angsty, cliched, etc. with music that's easy on the ears in the background, and the judges will claim that you are a true artist.

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I completely disagree. They use them because everybody (including judges and audience) knows them and so they will have a clue of what is attemped to be portrayed. If they are successful in their interpretation, maybe it can be called a masterpiece. But if they're not successful, people are able to tell that very easily as well and will rip them apart because it had nothing to do with the piece. Almost every skater used Carmen in their career. And how many were considered masterpieces or even very good programs?

It's not easy to skate to well known music, it's in fact a risk IMO. You risk being compared to others who did a great job with that music, you risk that judges and the audience think your interpretation was bad because they know better what the piece is about... It is definitely much easier IMO to skate to an unknown piece of music because since the public has no references, anything you do with it will look good.

The Russian Dance team back in the 90s... oh shoot can't remember their names... they were good friends of G&G I think they won gold (or maybe just silver) at the 92 Olys??? anywho not one of my favorite teams, obviously, but they skated to a Mozart(?) piece in a pro competition with this black scarf that portrayed the disease of his dying love it was really neat and I think it portrayed a sort of evil very well... wish more skaters would take the risk.

Mathman said:

I thought the black and white outfit was a knockout.

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I haven't quite develop an appreciation for swan head, duck tail kind of costumes ala AP, and Cohen yet. I think Arakawa's is the best swan lake among the 3. So congrats MM, you have acquired taste.

IMHO, the plunging nedkline in the original SL outfil does not suit Cohen at all.

Now that I think of it, it is pretty rare for a program to try to interpret evil. LOL.

Mathman

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I think artists who are willing to take the risk and portray the wicked from time to time are among the highest order. Take for example Fischer- Dieskau who sang one of the most memorable count role in WAM's le nozze di figaro, and he could be equally at ease and stellar being the righteous Elijah in FMB's Elijah.

chuckm said:

One of the things about the "two swan" costume and Sasha's TT Swan Lake that always bothered me was the lack of character interpretation. There was SUCH a wealth of drama there that was never even touched on--the sad white swan, in love with the Prince and yearning to be free of the sorcerer, the evil black swan seductress who foils her escape, the tragic ending. The beaming Sasha as she struck a pose in her spiral didn't seem to belong to any character at all.

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I found Sasha's progame to the music of Swan Lake quite refreshing. For me she never attempted to show the dual role of the character. She seemed to me to be interpreting the music in her own way without recourse to fable. Her Campbells for me was stunning.

I take it, Chuckum, you are a balletomane or at least you understand the dual role in SL. Your post is correct, but the question arises as whether a skater who uses these warhorses are obliged to interpet the stories behind the music. No one really interpets Basilio or Kitri in Don Q but John Curry did an excellent job of doing his own thing. Same thing with Rudy Galindo who did his own thing to SL. At Worlds, Ilia Klimkin (so sorry he withdrew) did the character of van Rothbart in SL but it was his own - not the story - just the sinister character out of any memodrama. He did it so well.

Maybe the boys are better at interpreting music than the girls. I remember Irina Slutskaya's histrionics in Tosca - not at all like the opera/. MK did her own version but for me it was about 70 percent of the mood I would want. And Kat's over-the top version of Carmen was for me totally unseductive. I know young fans will think she was just so innovative but not the older fans. They know many Carmens and she was no Callas.

I am not writing about Technical here. Just the interpetation of the warhorses which I think should come from the heart and not the story.

Swan Lake is a long ballet and the main character appears in 3 of the 4 Acts. If posters are not balletomanes and have never seen the complete SL, I would suggest they get a tape of it on loan from their local dealer. You will understand why I say that it is quite compelling on stage rather than on ice.

Joe

I'm glad Marsha and I are not the only ones who thinks that Sasha's program is untrue to either character let alone both. The costume does the work, along with the music. To me, it seemed like she was playing a skater who was skating to SL.

Trying to win this argument with skatepixie is impossible, but then again she hates all elegible ladies but Sasha. I'm thinking to myself, Jealous, are we? At least I like other elegible men besides Plushenko LOL.

Off topic, there's a beautifully sad episode of Angel in which a ballerina is cursed by a demon of some sorts to dance the same performance of Swan Lake every night for a century until Angel comes along. The key to breaking the curse, change the ending. So she simply adds a few steps, then does the ending. Then she's free to rest in peace.

I love evil programs, and yes you don't see them often enough, which is a shame.

I have programs to The Ten Commandments, and The Prince of Egypt is coming soon, and both of these portray the evil Pharoah Rameses instead of Moses.

Don't Care

I don't care what anyone skates to (including Swan Lake) as long as it is not some tuneless meandering thing from "The Petrified Forest" that makes me start to compose my grocery list in my head or clean my nails while I wait for the pain to stop. I don't even care if they skate to Swan Lake AND flap, as long as it doesn't make me laugh out loud. If a skater "sells it", I'm a happy observer.

Mathman, ditto about Michelle and the Lori Nichols choreography and music. Together, they had the "it" factor going for a long time.