"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies | Page 5 | Golden Skate

"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Figure skating is a judged sport. That means it is subjective. If scoring were objective, they'd only need to have one referee or umpire. The word "accurately" in the thread title is a misnomer. Judges are human beings, and human beings, like ourselves, are going to value different skating qualities and different performance qualities. Each person is going to score them differently.

While there will always be some differences in opinion, there is absolutely a large degree of objectivity involved in scoring, based upon a personal/shared understanding of the sport and its history.

What we've seen is a massive trend of inflated scores that goes beyond a simple difference of opinion and instead is about the judges handing out the highest scores they possibly can, without a realistic reference point. I love this post that explains it as a symptom of capitalism - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...s-Free-Skate&p=1413804&viewfull=1#post1413804

Then of course there are all the usual unobjective biases in the scoring of this sport that have always existed - scoring on reputation and momentum and because of the most financially lucrative outcome for a competition, rather than the skating that actually happened. I would also argue the scoring system itself has warped the sport such that people don't even recognize many aspects of great skating anymore, since they have been so abandoned (largely because the scoring system doesn't reward them).

I gave out ONE single +3 GOE grade in this competition between both the SP and the LP - to Mirai's Layback in the SP. Even that element Mirai herself has done better in the past on a pure technical level, when she was younger and able to do some amazingly fast and ultra-flexible layback spins. My +3 score was based upon the movements in the spin being directed timed with the phrasing of the music; I don't think I've ever seen a very high quality layback executed with changes of position exactly in accordance to the music like that. It was brilliant.

Now, it's true that in the current scoring system there aren't "1.5" and "2.5" increments on the GOE (although the ISU may be implementing them soon), however even if I was forced to score with only +2 and +3 as options, the only other +3's I would have given out would have been for Rika Hongo's choreographic sequence in the LP and Mao Asada's step sequence in the LP. Maaaybe also Miyahara's step sequence in the SP. So at most that would be 4 grades of "+3" given out over the entire competition. I challenge anyone to argue why any other elements in this competition possibly could have deserved "+3" on the GOE. I can point out many instances of other such elements throughout the history of the sport (and even in this competition alone) that were much superior to the ones the judges gave "+3" to in this competition, which objectively means those scores are not accurate. If you want to argue "well the judges are just following guidelines", then I would argue both that those guidelines are inherently flawed and also the term "guideline" means a principal which should be roughly followed, rather than 100% taken as exact and unmovable.

The same goes for the PCS. Over the whole competition the highest score I gave to any component was "9" and I only even gave that out twice - once for Ashley's choreography in the SP and once for Mirai's interpretation in the SP. Again, I challenge anyone to engage and argue why any component from this competition should have been higher, when you look at what these competitors did compared to the heights that have been reached in this sport. If you consider anything from this competition to be a mid/high '9' or even a '10', then you are directly telling the entire world of figure skating "this is the standard of absolute excellence/perfection". However, such a thing would be a lie and that lie inherently devolves the quality of the entire sport, because competitors think "oh, okay, that's all I have to do to get the best score then".

So who loses out in the end as a result? The audience does. Figure skating is PERFECT for the current world we live in, where competitive performances can be quickly shared and watched across all manner of social media. But, not many people care anymore, because the level of artistry happening in figure skating is generally lower, "less exciting", than what they can find elsewhere.
 
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Callycal

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 3, 2016
This is how I finished up.

I don't think me or my friend gave a single GOE of 3 in the entire competition.


1. Evgeni Medvedeva 222.93
2. Satoko Miyahara 216.86 - I do not understand how they rated her PCS below Radionova
3. Ashley Wagner 212.22
4. Mao Asada 210.63 - kind of higher than we thought, but now I see why folks were complaining about her PCS marks
5. Anna Pogorilaya 208.33
6. Gracie Gold 202.81
7. Rika Hongbo 196.59 - energetic program, but umm I can't get with her skating posture...
8. Elena Radionova 194.21
9. Mirai Nagasu 192.42
10. Gabrielle Daleman 188.50
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
This is how I finished up.

I don't think me or my friend gave a single GOE of 3 in the entire competition.


1. Evgeni Medvedeva 222.93
2. Satoko Miyahara 216.86 - I do not understand how they rated her PCS below Radionova
3. Ashley Wagner 212.22
4. Mao Asada 210.63 - kind of higher than we thought, but now I see why folks were complaining about her PCS marks
5. Anna Pogorilaya 208.33
6. Gracie Gold 202.81
7. Rika Hongbo 196.59 - energetic program, but umm I can't get with her skating posture...
8. Elena Radionova 194.21
9. Mirai Nagasu 192.42
10. Gabrielle Daleman 188.50

What GOEs did you put to Satoko? o_O
I dunno, i just cannot imagine how she can be above Ashley and Anna in any order - they were just plain better.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I have not tried to add up my scores or figure out "my" overall results.

I gave the following +3s:

Short program
Tursynbaeva StSq and LSp
Nagasu CCoSp and LSp
Wagner StSq
Gold LSp

Freeskate
Medvedeva 3F+3T and 3S+3T
Miyahara LSp
Wagner 2A and ChSt
 

temadd

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 19, 2015
Are you telling me that Mirai's FS program isnt cheesy? Or maybe even awful .... as you say of Lenok's Music.

Mirai's FS was a guilty pleasure for me but arguably for the wrong reasons :devil:

Actually, I never said anything about Mirai's music. If you ask, yes parts of her music were pretty cheesy too and so poorly cut together.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Actually, I never said anything about Mirai's music. If you ask, yes parts of her music were pretty cheesy too and so poorly cut together.

I can't imagine any crowd going crazy for Elena's horribly cheesy music. It's awful. I think she is adorable and wonderfully passionate but that music is inappropriate.

True but I thought BoP was suggesting that had Elena been American then as a result the crowd would have gladly jumped on that sinking ship and cheered her on. You said no way because Elena's music was cheesy and poorly put together. IMO the crowd went bonkers for Mirai in both the SP and the FS and it was one of the most random FS's I can remember seeing this season and I'd go as far as to say delivered under par. Just my take though.

We're going astray here though because I think the point BoP was making is that home advantage play's an out of proportion with fair scoring role and had Elena been American she may have scored many more points because the judges are so easily swayed by such outside factors. Maybe I misunderstood the conversation or something.
 
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andyjo24

Medalist
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
curious to see what you would do with gabby and mirai ;) please :)

Gabrielle Daleman

TES
3T+3T (+1.5): 9.65/ extremely difficult entry, huge distance, great speed going in; not a +2 because the landing position wasn't very pretty
Lsp4 (+1.5): 3.45/ good speed, centering but no Biellmann
FCSp4 (+1): 3.70/ not the best positions but okay; decent speed
3Lz (+1): 7.30/ good distance, good steps, good exit, but the landing free leg position isn't the best
2A (+1.5): 4.38/ stable, nice transitions out
StSq3 (+1.5): 4.05/ good edges but a bit too busy and at times, not perfectly matching the music
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Good centering, positions, and speed, but not anything special

TES Total: 36.78

PCS
SS: 8.50/ extremely solid edges and control, extremely fast speed (one of the fastest in the whole competition!)
T: 8.25/ many and a variety of transitions into and out of all the elements; fits right along with the music
P: 8.25/ lively facial expressions, lots of power in movement
C: 8.00/ appropriate choreography to the lively music
I: 8.25/ shows playfulness, which matches the music perfectly; great facial expressions; great power in general movement

PCS Total: 33.00

Total for GD: 36.78 + 33.00 = 69.78

Mirai Nagasu

TES
3F+3T< (-1): 7.60/ 2nd Toe is UR and the landing was a bit shaky
FCSP4 (+1.5): 3.95/ Good centering, speed, and positions
3Lo (+1): 5.80/ Good height and transitions in but the landing was a bit forward
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Good positions and centering but speed could be a tad faster
2A (+2.5): 4.88/ Easily the BEST 2A in the competition; huge height and distance and right on the music; I don't give +3's for 2A's though... Haha.
StSq3 (+2): 4.30/ Extremely powerful; put all energy into the steps; edges, however, could be deeper
Lsp4 (+2.5): 3.95/ Interesting positions, strong speed and centering; very easy-looking

TES Total: 34.75

SS: 7.75/ Edges could be deeper, speed could be faster, but in general, pretty decent
T: 7.75/ There could have been more transitions; some parts felt a bit empty; nice ina though!
P: 8.75/ Great performance! You can see that she put everything into it! Lots of fire!
C: 7.75/ Not the best or most innovative choreography but she made it work
I: 8.50/ Great interpretation! Arm movements and facial expressions go along with the music; perfectly fits her story of fighting “demons”

PCS Total: 32.40

Total for MN: 34.75 + 32.40 = 67.15

My Standings After SP

1) Anna Pogorilaya: 39.38 + 35.40 = 74.78
2) Rika Hongo: 38.92 + 33.80 = 72.72
3) Gracie Gold: 37.86 + 34.00 = 71.86
4) Ashley Wagner: 36.99 + 34.20 = 71.19
5) Evgenia Medvedeva: 38.35 + 32.60 = 70.95
6) Gabrielle Daleman: 36.78 + 33.00 = 69.78
7) Satoko Miyahara: 34.55 + 33.00 = 67.55
8) Mirai Nagasu: 34.75 + 32.40 = 67.15
9) Mao Asada: 33.66 + 33.20 = 66.86
10) Elena Radionova: 35.91 + 30.80 = 66.71

My experience at the LP event was completely different, so be prepared for changes in the rankings!

I'll try to post it by some time later this week.
 
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4everchan

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Mar 7, 2015
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Martinique
thank you :) gabby would like this :)
Gabrielle Daleman

TES
3T+3T (+1.5): 9.65/ extremely difficult entry, huge distance, great speed going in; not a +2 because the landing position wasn't very pretty
Lsp4 (+1.5): 3.45/ good speed, centering but no Biellmann
FCSp4 (+1): 3.70/ not the best positions but okay; decent speed
3Lz (+1): 7.30/ good distance, good steps, good exit, but the landing free leg position isn't the best
2A (+1.5): 4.38/ stable, nice transitions out
StSq3 (+1.5): 4.05/ good edges but a bit too busy and at times, not perfectly matching the music
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Good centering, positions, and speed, but not anything special

TES Total: 36.78

PCS
SS: 8.50/ extremely solid edges and control, extremely fast speed (one of the fastest in the whole competition!)
T: 8.25/ many and a variety of transitions into and out of all the elements; fits right along with the music
P: 8.25/ lively facial expressions, lots of power in movement
C: 8.00/ appropriate choreography to the lively music
I: 8.25/ shows playfulness, which matches the music perfectly; great facial expressions; great power in general movement

PCS Total: 33.00

Total for GD: 36.78 + 33.00 = 69.78

Mirai Nagasu

TES
3F+3T< (-1): 7.60/ 2nd Toe is UR and the landing was a bit shaky
FCSP4 (+1.5): 3.95/ Good centering, speed, and positions
3Lo (+1): 5.80/ Good height and transitions in but the landing was a bit forward
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Good positions and centering but speed could be a tad faster
2A (+2.5): 4.88/ Easily the BEST 2A in the competition; huge height and distance and right on the music; I don't give +3's for 2A's though... Haha.
StSq3 (+2): 4.30/ Extremely powerful; put all energy into the steps; edges, however, could be deeper
Lsp4 (+2.5): 3.95/ Interesting positions, strong speed and centering; very easy-looking

TES Total: 34.75

SS: 7.75/ Edges could be deeper, speed could be faster, but in general, pretty decent
T: 7.75/ There could have been more transitions; some parts felt a bit empty; nice ina though!
P: 8.75/ Great performance! You can see that she put everything into it! Lots of fire!
C: 7.75/ Not the best or most innovative choreography but she made it work
I: 8.50/ Great interpretation! Arm movements and facial expressions go along with the music; perfectly fits her story of fighting “demons”

PCS Total: 32.40

Total for MN: 34.75 + 32.40 = 67.15

My Standings After SP

1) Anna Pogorilaya: 39.38 + 35.40 = 74.78
2) Rika Hongo: 38.92 + 33.80 = 72.72
3) Gracie Gold: 37.86 + 34.00 = 71.86
4) Ashley Wagner: 36.99 + 34.20 = 71.19
5) Evgenia Medvedeva: 38.35 + 32.60 = 70.95
6) Gabrielle Daleman: 36.78 + 33.00 = 69.78
7) Satoko Miyahara: 34.55 + 33.00 = 67.55
8) Mirai Nagasu: 34.75 + 32.40 = 67.15
9) Mao Asada: 33.66 + 33.20 = 66.86
10) Elena Radionova: 35.91 + 30.80 = 66.71

My experience at the LP event was completely different, so be prepared for changes in the rankings!

I'll try to post it by some time later this week.
 

GGFan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Any judging system needs to deal with human limitations and heuristics. Research says that we're horrible at multi-tasking and time pressure does not help matters. I completely believe that given lots of time we could come up with pretty decent assessments of these performances. However, given the time pressure the judges are under and the amount of tasks they are asked to do their brains are going to naturally opt for simplicity. I doubt this system could pass muster with cognitive scientists. I think it is close to impossible for judges to perform the job that's being asked of them. And that's even before we get into politics, reputational effects, audience influence, etc.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Any judging system needs to deal with human limitations and heuristics. Research says that we're horrible at multi-tasking and time pressure does not help matters. I completely believe that given lots of time we could come up with pretty decent assessments of these performances. However, given the time pressure the judges are under and the amount of tasks they are asked to do their brains are going to naturally opt for simplicity. I doubt this system could pass muster with cognitive scientists. I think it is close to impossible for judges to perform the job that's being asked of them. And that's even before we get into politics, reputational effects, audience influence, etc.

I don't always agree with final results, particularly when it comes to the non-podium finishers' ranking, but I think the judges generally get the top placements right. This is quite impressive given the challenges you highlighted in your post. I don't care much about the scores at all as long as the medals go to the right skaters and spots for the following Worlds were allocated fairly.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I doubt this system could pass muster with cognitive scientists. I think it is close to impossible for judges to perform the job that's being asked of them.

Given the range of skills and qualities that figure skating has valued, what kind of system do you think cognitive scientists would recommend to account for as many of those qualities as possible?
 

solani

Record Breaker
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Sep 8, 2014
Country
Austria
I don't always agree with final results, particularly when it comes to the non-podium finishers' ranking, but I think the judges generally get the top placements right. This is quite impressive given the challenges you highlighted in your post. I don't care much about the scores at all as long as the medals go to the right skaters and spots for the following Worlds were allocated fairly.
I fully agree and I think that every sports fan, at some point, has to face the fact that sport isn't fair. I, as a ski jumping fan, learned this at an very early age. I also really remember that, when I was a small kid, there was an alpine downhill world championship race where a rather unknown swiss skier won gold because he had a immense tailwind at some point in the race. He was lucky, but he also skied very well. And favoured athletes also get the better equipment by their sponsors, skiers get the better skis, the better wax technicians, coaches. Same goes for figure skaters to some degree - they get the prettier dresses for free and they can afford the better coaches. More of their own fans are in the arena - that certainly helps! and so on. As long as the athletes with the best performances are on the podium I'm fine with it.
And this thread shows that the judging was good. Medvedeva is the rightful winner and silver or bronze isn't so very important, as long as it is a medal the athletes should be happy with it. And they seemed to be, it's always good to see the athletes on the podium happy.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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What GOEs did you put to Satoko? o_O
I dunno, i just cannot imagine how she can be above Ashley and Anna in any order - they were just plain better.

Well, if you don't spot the technique problems of Satako's jumps, then it would be rather easy to assign her a huge score (aka, the LP score the judges gave her). But those jumps are very problematic. As I noted in my scores, I also don't think her LP has good interpretation either. It's all this same type of gentle elegance, during the times she isn't doing convoluted tech elements and transitions which directly break that elegant kind of look, and while all of those very elegant movements and overall expression look good on their own, they don't have much to do with the textures of the music she skated to. The programs she had in 2014 were considerably more attuned to the music, also her LP in 2015.

I have not tried to add up my scores or figure out "my" overall results.

I gave the following +3s:

Short program
Tursynbaeva StSq and LSp
Nagasu CCoSp and LSp
Wagner StSq
Gold LSp

Freeskate
Medvedeva 3F+3T and 3S+3T
Miyahara LSp
Wagner 2A and ChSt

Now we can get into more specifics, these should be great case studies since I disagree with all of them except Mirai's layback in the SP. Very strongly disagree in some cases. I've provided video links for all of these elements.

Tursynbaeva - Short Program Step Sequence - Very fast movement, very fluid and good edges too. However, the movement essentially skates through the music. Yes, it is very cheery and relatively fast music, and that is the feeling she presents, but the movement doesn't match the exact pacing and phrasing of the music. When you are doing a step sequence in isolation of an exact timing, it makes it easier. Thus, there is no way this sequence can be given a +3, because an essential component for perfection is missing.

Elizabet Tursynbaeva - Short Program Layback Spin - Certainly a very good spin, but the extension on the sideways position AND the haircutter position are not ideal. Very good speed but faster is possible. The spin is not used in a particularly precise manner with the music. Too many qualities of perfection are missing for this to be considered a +3 element.

Mirai Nagasu - Short Program Combination Spin - The thing to consider here is the speed, especially on the last position. It's a great spin but could possibly be considerably faster, so I don't see how a +3 can be justified. More difficult positions would be necessary with that level of speed to consider a +3.

Ashley Wagner - Short Program Step Sequence - It's such a fun and engaging sequence but we have to pay attention to depth of edge. She just doesn't get deep edges most of the time. The sequence slows down considerably at the end too when she is doing the loop turns (she lost the level 4 because that last loop wasn't completed properly).

Gracie Gold - Short Program Layback Spin - The sideways position here doesn't have as much bend as it could ideally have and the haircutter position has some distance between the blade and the head (and this is the position she choose to hold for the 8 revolutions feature). If this was one of the fastest spins ever, ala Natalie Krieg, we could overlook those imperfections, but it isn't.

Evgenia Medvedeva - Long Program 3Flip+3Toe - Not particularly big jumps, especially on the second one, where the rotation is also not totally perfect. Not especially excellent flow out. No especially difficult entrance. This doesn't even fully deserve a +2 for me because of those most important fundamentals of a JUMP that are lacking here. Don't let a hand over the head fool you. The golden standard for a 3Flip+3Toe is Yu-Na Kim at 2007 Worlds - when you look at how this FLIES across the ice and how the rotation is completed entirely in the air, it's on whole different planet compared to Medvedeva's jumping.

Evgenia Medvedeva - Long Program 3Salchow+3Toe - Again this isn't even fully deserving of +2 to me. Neither jump is huge, there's no difficult entrance, and the toeloop technique is not ideal - she draws around on the ice instead of going straight back and up after landing the first jump. How could this even possibly be considered for a +3?

Satako Miyahara - Long Program Layback Spin - The key thing holding this back is her very weak free leg position.

Ashley Wagner - Long Program 2Axel - No difficult entrance, no difficult air position, not a particularly big jump. Even a +2 for this is too generous. I'm sorry but Ashley could never even dream of doing a +3 Double Axel. This is what a +3 Double Axel looks like.

Ashley Wagner - Long Program Choreographic Sequence - Of everything you listed, this one shocks me the most. It's barely above average. She does a couple back steps (if we can even count that as where the sequence starts, since she takes 3 crossovers afterward), a very brief and shallow spread eagle, and then a back spiral. The spiral is nice but hardly has amazing extension and isn't held that long; there's even a little bobble in the position while she is doing it. After the spiral she does a couple simple steps without much speed and then a thrusting upward arm movement. Compare this to even her own Choreographic Sequence at 2014 Worlds, which was similar but had much more content and stability to it, and you can see how what she does in 2016 is very inferior.
 
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Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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What about Nicole Rajicova's ChSeq? It's starts around 1:40. I love it and feel like it's one of the most meaningful and well thought out choreographic moments of the night. In fact....probably my favorite FS program in terms of the construction and focus on feel of the music.

https://youtu.be/9ew-26PSaAg?t=1m25s
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Now we can get into more specifics, these should be great case studies since I disagree with all of them except Mirai's layback in the SP. Very strongly disagree in some cases. I've provided video links for all of these elements.

Thank you for cuing up the videos.

Tursynbaeva - Short Program Step Sequence - Very fast movement, very fluid and good edges too. However, the movement essentially skates through the music. Yes, it is very cheery and relatively fast music, and that is the feeling she presents, but the movement doesn't match the exact pacing and phrasing of the music. When you are doing a step sequence in isolation of an exact timing, it makes it easier. Thus, there is no way this sequence can be given a +3, because an essential component for perfection is missing.

+3 does not necessarily require perfection. You seem to be starting with a platonic ideal element in mind and only giving +3 to elements that meet that ideal. That would be one way for elements to deserve +3, but that is not how the ISU is asking judges to award + GOEs.

"It is at the discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows:
FOR +1: 2 bullets FOR +2: 4 bullets FOR +3: 6 or more bullets"

The positive GOE bullet points for step sequences are
1) good energy and execution
2) good speed or acceleration during sequence
3) use of various steps during the sequence
4) deep clean edges (including entry and exit of all turns)
5) good control and commitment of the whole body maintaining accuracy of steps
6) creativity and originality
7) effortless throughout
8) element enhances the musical structure

I would give Tursynbaeva all of those bullet points except 4) and possible 5). So that's at least six of the bullet points by my evaluation, easily meeting the recommendations for +3 GOE.

I was especially impressed that several of the quick steps occurred precisely in time with quick musical beats, and some lifting movements in her body occurred in time with lifting gestures in the music. If you didn't see/hear that, well, that's a difference in perception. That's why there's a whole panel of judges and not just one person.

Elizabet Tursynbaeva - Short Program Layback Spin - Certainly a very good spin, but the extension on the sideways position AND the haircutter position are not ideal. Very good speed but faster is possible. The spin is not used in a particularly precise manner with the music. Too many qualities of perfection are missing for this to be considered a +3 element.

Again, your personal standard as a very strict/picky judge is that you personally would only award +3 for what you consider perfection, but that is not the ISU's standard.

The bullet points for spins are
1) good speed or acceleration during spin
2) ability to center a spin quickly
3) balanced rotations in all positions
4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
5) good, strong position(s) (including height and air/landing positions in flying spins)
6 creativity and originality
7) good control throughout all phases
8) element matched to the musical structure

I would say this spin easily meets bullet points 1), 2) , 4), and 7), so it easily deserves +2. I went up to +3 because I felt that it far exceeded the threshold for 2) and 4) -- not only was it quickly centered, but throughout this fast sustained spin, she barely moved from that center; and I counted 21 revolutions -- the requirement is 8. Although the positions were not the most beautiful I've ever seen, I thought they were very well controlled with good flexibility; and the way she accelerated in the haircutter position as the singer sang "(breath) more" enhanced the musical structure for that moment. So those little extras bumped up my +2 to +3.

Mirai Nagasu - Short Program Combination Spin - The thing to consider here is the speed, especially on the last position. It's a great spin but could possibly be considerably faster, so I don't see how a +3 can be justified. More difficult positions would be necessary with that level of speed to consider a +3.

OK, on rewatch I would probably stick with only +2 for this one. I could give 5 bullet points, numbers 2), 3), 4), 5), and 7). I did think the centering was exceptionally strong.

Ashley Wagner - Short Program Step Sequence - It's such a fun and engaging sequence but we have to pay attention to depth of edge. She just doesn't get deep edges most of the time. The sequence slows down considerably at the end too when she is doing the loop turns (she lost the level 4 because that last loop wasn't completed properly).

See step sequence bullet points above. I could easily award points 1), 3), 6), 7), and 8). Five bullets falls between the recommendations for +2 and +3; I thought 8 (element enhances the musical structure) was exceptional, so I rounded up. And in fact I could also award point 5) although as you point out there was a moment of inaccuracy in the last loop -- but the "commitment of the whole body" part was very strong.

Gracie Gold - Short Program Layback Spin - The sideways position here doesn't have as much bend as it could ideally have and the haircutter position has some distance between the blade and the head (and this is the position she choose to hold for the 8 revolutions feature). If this was one of the fastest spins ever, ala Natalie Krieg, we could overlook those imperfections, but it isn't.

See spin bullet points above. I would award 1), 2), 3), 4), 5), and 7). Maintained centering very well.

Evgenia Medvedeva - Long Program 3Flip+3Toe - Not particularly big jumps, especially on the second one, where the rotation is also not totally perfect. Not especially excellent flow out. No especially difficult entrance. This doesn't even fully deserve a +2 for me because of those most important fundamentals of a JUMP that are lacking here. Don't let a hand over the head fool you. The golden standard for a 3Flip+3Toe is Yu-Na Kim at 2007 Worlds - when you look at how this FLIES across the ice and how the rotation is completed entirely in the air, it's on whole different planet compared to Medvedeva's jumping.

Bullet points for jump elements:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotaiton
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

I'd give this points 3), 4), 5), 6), and 7), so borderline between +2 and +3. The height and distance on the first jump were quite good; less so on the second but still above average for the second jump of a combo. I originally gave the element +2, looking down to note my score when I saw she had good extension on the second landing. I bumped it up to +3 after the replay when I saw that she had actually held that landing edge longer, done an edge pull to gain speed into an edge change and loop still on the same foot, so she also had a creative exit, awarding point 5) was my tiebreaker.

Evgenia Medvedeva - Long Program 3Salchow+3Toe - Again this isn't even fully deserving of +2 to me. Neither jump is huge, there's no difficult entrance, and the toeloop technique is not ideal - she draws around on the ice instead of going straight back and up after landing the first jump. How could this even possibly be considered for a +3?

Again I gave her extra credit for the rocker-rocker added to the landing edge. But this combo didn't have the same size on the first jump as the flip combo, nor the varied air position, so I probably should have stuck with +2 here.

Satako Miyahara - Long Program Layback Spin - The key thing holding this back is her very weak free leg position.

Spin bullets 1), 2) (and good centering maintained throughout), 4), 5), 7), and to a lesser degree 8) (the position changes do occur with subtle changes in the music; matching spins to music at all is rare).
I don't find the free leg position "very weak" -- she chose to use a straight-leg position in the first variation to allow her to achieve a deeper back arch. While it's not the strongest straight-leg layback position I've ever seen, I think it qualifies as "good" because once the leg reaches the low extended position it is turned out and she holds it still and controlled in exactly the same spot for many revolutions while the back position is very good.

Ashley Wagner - Long Program 2Axel - No difficult entrance, no difficult air position, not a particularly big jump. Even a +2 for this is too generous. I'm sorry but Ashley could never even dream of doing a +3 Double Axel. This is what a +3 Double Axel looks like.

Bullet points 4) ("best ever" height and distance are not required -- this easily qualifies as "good"), 5), 6), 7), and 8). Five bullets = borderline between +2 and +3. I felt that the really solid landing edge corresponding exactly with the music was strong enough to round upward.

Ashley Wagner - Long Program Choreographic Sequence - Of everything you listed, this one shocks me the most. It's barely above average. She does a couple back steps (if we can even count that as where the sequence starts, since she takes 3 crossovers afterward), a very brief and shallow spread eagle, and then a back spiral. The spiral is nice but hardly has amazing extension and isn't held that long; there's even a little bobble in the position while she is doing it. After the spiral she does a couple simple steps without much speed and then a thrusting upward arm movement. Compare this to even her own Choreographic Sequence at 2014 Worlds, which was similar but had much more content and stability to it, and you can see how what she does in 2016 is very inferior.

Choreographic Sequence bullet points:
1) good flow, energy and execution
2) good speed or acceleration during sequence
3) good clarity and precision
4) good control and commitment of whole body
5) creativity and originality
6) effortless throughout
7) reflecting concept/character of the program
8) element enhances the musical structure

OK, I'll agree with you that technically this sequence is nothing special and will only give it bullet points 4), 6), 7), and 8). I did think it did an especially good job of 7) and 8), but I'll revise my score to +2.
 
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YesWay

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gkelly, I applaud your by-the-book methodology. Everything related to the actual GoE bullet points that the judges are supposed to use. And I appreciate the time you must have spent on it.

Opinions can differ on whether particular bullet points were met or not, but you presented your case very well IMO - it's what I'd call a "properly reasoned" scoring argument.
 
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Thank you to Blades of Passion, gkelly and the other contributors to this excellent thread. This is good stuff!
 

FSGMT

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What about Nicole Rajicova's ChSeq? It's starts around 1:40. I love it and feel like it's one of the most meaningful and well thought out choreographic moments of the night. In fact....probably my favorite FS program in terms of the construction and focus on feel of the music.

https://youtu.be/9ew-26PSaAg?t=1m25s
Do you mean her Step Sequence? If so, I gave to agree, but not up to the point of giving her a +3. It could hit bullet points 5) and 7) for sure, maybe 1) and 8), but I wouldn't give it credit for "good speed or acceleration" nor for "various steps" or "deep clean edges", and I did not find it particularly creative or original, either. So between +1 and +2.

Anyway, that's a nice program and it's a pity that she wasted the chance of skating it well in front of her home crowd in Bratislava!
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Do you mean her Step Sequence? If so, I gave to agree, but not up to the point of giving her a +3. It could hit bullet points 5) and 7) for sure, maybe 1) and 8), but I wouldn't give it credit for "good speed or acceleration" nor for "various steps" or "deep clean edges", and I did not find it particularly creative or original, either. So between +1 and +2.

Anyway, that's a nice program and it's a pity that she wasted the chance of skating it well in front of her home crowd in Bratislava!

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/wc2016/wc2016_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

But looking at the protocols between the FCSp4 and 3Z-2t is where I time stamped it (1:40ish) and it's scored as s ChSeq. It does resemble a well thought out StSeq.

The thing about Nicole is that she does a good job with spins and choreography considering she isn't super flexible. To me...it's good to see skaters not forcing ugly positions but instead maximizing their ability.

Here is the guidelines on awarding GOE for ChSeq.

1) good flow, energy and execution
2) good speed or acceleration during sequence
3) good clarity and precision
4) good control and commitment of whole body
5) creativity and originality
6) effortless throughout
7) reflecting concept/character of the program
8) element enhances the musical structure

And again the same link.
https://youtu.be/9ew-26PSaAg?t=1m25s

For me 4,6,7,8 are achieved and maybe even 3 and a bit of 5 for creativity but I think 7 and 8 deserve extra consideration which to me is the heart of a ChSeq.
 
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Blades of Passion

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+3 does not necessarily require perfection. You seem to be starting with a platonic ideal element in mind and only giving +3 to elements that meet that ideal. That would be one way for elements to deserve +3, but that is not how the ISU is asking judges to award + GOEs.

This is where we are having a fundamental difference and it's part of what causes so much scoring inflation. When you have a maximum score possible for an element, handing out that maximum score NEEDS to specifically be a statement of "this was one of the best executions ever for this element." If you aren't judging like that, then there is no real differential in place. If skater A is receiving a +3 for an element that is significantly inferior to the way skater B executes that element, then where is the reward for that obviously superior element from skater B? What incentive do they have to keep executing it that well (and thus create a special WOW moment for us all to appreciate)?

Now getting into the "by the book" bullet points, those bullet points are flawed. For jumps especially, they do not reflect the factual difficulties that should be assessed when evaluating the quality of a jump. The current guidelines, and judging, are why we have so many competitors doing all of these small, safe, pre-rotated jumps. There is not NEARLY enough of an importance and degree of variation placed upon the size of a jump in scoring guidelines and there is NO guideline whatsoever for recognizing perfection of rotation in jumps and rewarding jumps that complete all of their rotation IN THE AIR. These qualities are the essential fundamentals of what constitute a truly great jump and they are being ignored.

So, anyone who wants to discuss this, please don't point at the ISU guidelines as if that is some kind of iron-clad argument. Those guidelines aren't meant to be exactly followed like a lemming and they are incorrect in the first place. We are trying to talk about how things should be objectively scored here.

Tursynbaeva - Short Program Step Sequence

I was especially impressed that several of the quick steps occurred precisely in time with quick musical beats, and some lifting movements in her body occurred in time with lifting gestures in the music. If you didn't see/hear that, well, that's a difference in perception.

A few of the steps are in time with the music, yes. However, much of it is not exactly with the music. Look at 2:08 where she pauses and the movement she does. There is no correlation to the music for that. Similarly, a couple seconds after that, the music goes "ahh boop a dop a deee, boop a doop (or whatever this scat lyric is LOL)" and her movements don't match the exact rapidity of that lyric. She is instead doing a back loop turn and then changes foot and does a small step from the LBO to the RFI, and then back to the LBO. Right after that part she does an illusion turn and it doesn't really have anything to do with the music, it's too grand of a gesture and not having the fluidity for this moment. These are a perfect examples of the content skaters are trying to cram into their programs these days, some of which is required by the silly rules we have, and how it betrays the music.

At 2:21 she does back steps that start a little too early to be in time with the trumpets that come into the music. At 2:25 there is a held note that takes over the melody and builds to a downbeat, but instead she is still moving rapidly. All of these moments that I just described give too much of an impression of the performer just skating through the music. The planned footwork sequence is very good on its own technically, but too much of the timing is missing. So you can not honestly give this sequence the bullet point of "enhances the musical structure". Remember that -GOE also must be taken into consideration and "does not correspond to the music" is a -1 to -2 deduction. For me, a bit of a deduction is invoked by this sequence in that regard.

Elizabet Tursynbaeva - Short Program Layback Spin

Again, your personal standard as a very strict/picky judge is that you personally would only award +3 for what you consider perfection, but that is not the ISU's standard.

This is not just about a "personal standard" but a shared standard and understanding. Dick Button didn't rant for decades about bad layback positions so that the world would forget all about it. It's quite sad that there are barely any actual "layback spins" happening. Nearly everything these days is just sideways or catch-foot. We should at least expect those positions to be great if we're considering a +3 GOE! In the past couple years we've even had to suffer through so many of these god-awful semi-illusion entrances that are being counted as a "difficult entrance". There should be a memorandum of this entrance not counting as a difficult spin entrance unless it is a full, superbly extended illusion turn. So many of these attempts are just fugly and shouldn't be considered difficult enough to count.

Blades of Passion said:
Evgenia Medvedeva - Long Program 3Flip+3Toe - Not particularly big jumps, especially on the second one, where the rotation is also not totally perfect. Not especially excellent flow out. No especially difficult entrance. This doesn't even fully deserve a +2 for me because of those most important fundamentals of a JUMP that are lacking here. Don't let a hand over the head fool you. The golden standard for a 3Flip+3Toe is Yu-Na Kim at 2007 Worlds - when you look at how this FLIES across the ice and how the rotation is completed entirely in the air, it's on whole different planet compared to Medvedeva's jumping.

Bullet points for jump elements:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotaiton
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

I'd give this points 3), 4), 5), 6), and 7), so borderline between +2 and +3. The height and distance on the first jump were quite good; less so on the second but still above average for the second jump of a combo. I originally gave the element +2, looking down to note my score when I saw she had good extension on the second landing. I bumped it up to +3 after the replay when I saw that she had actually held that landing edge longer, done an edge pull to gain speed into an edge change and loop still on the same foot, so she also had a creative exit, awarding point 5) was my tiebreaker.

Her extension on the landing isn't that great. The loop afterward does not count as an "exit" to me. The exit of a jump is the movement a skater does immediately after landing. For her, that movement was just holding the back edge with not a ton of speed out and a briefly extended free leg (below hip level). The loop turn is simply a transitional element of the program itself, after doing an edge pull from the landing of the jump, not something to be considered as related to this jump element. If she had gone into a loop turn without an edge pull that would be a different story. With only 5 bullet points here for this element, and none of them being extraordinary, a +3 should not be given, even going by these flawed guidelines.

Satako Miyahara - Long Program Layback Spin

Spin bullets 1), 2) (and good centering maintained throughout), 4), 5), 7), and to a lesser degree 8) (the position changes do occur with subtle changes in the music; matching spins to music at all is rare).

I don't find the free leg position "very weak" -- she chose to use a straight-leg position in the first variation to allow her to achieve a deeper back arch. While it's not the strongest straight-leg layback position I've ever seen, I think it qualifies as "good" because once the leg reaches the low extended position it is turned out and she holds it still and controlled in exactly the same spot for many revolutions while the back position is very good.

Just because matching spins to music is rare (and that is largely because of the ridiculously convoluted spins everyone is doing these days), it doesn't mean we should be dumbing down the standard. I do not find her position changes to be especially reflective of the music, especially the sideways position. That movement is there solely to get a Level 4 on the element, not because of any special relation to the music. So a +3 is not deserved.

If she had left the sideways position out entirely and also the haircutter position (which has an obtuse and slightly frantic look that directly goes against this music) and continued to do just the backbend position and then gone into the Beillmann and held it longer, that would have been a more refined spin. Unfortunately nobody does a spin like that anymore these days because the rules only give it a Level 2 and the judges do not pay attention to these details that I am talking about. Thus competitors are overscored, thus forcing everyone to skate more mechanically in such a way that superficially seems more point-worthy.

---

What about Nicole Rajicova's ChSeq? It's starts around 1:40. I love it and feel like it's one of the most meaningful and well thought out choreographic moments of the night. In fact....probably my favorite FS program in terms of the construction and focus on feel of the music.

https://youtu.be/9ew-26PSaAg?t=1m25s

I like the idea of the sequence but her lacking skating skills (doesn't gain and maintain speed very well, doesn't transfer well between turns and steps) robs the sequence of power and clarity. She also has a balance check at 2:00.
 
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