Analyzing Kerrigan and Baiul's Oly programs

Mathman · May 15, 2016

To me, "wuz-robbed" means something a little different in the IJS era compared to earlier times. In 2013 Denis Ten was not robbed by the judges getting it wrong, but by the scoring system itself. Patrick Chan was so far ahead after the short program that it didn't matter what happened in the long.

As for the 1994 Olympics, IMHO Mishkutenok and Dmetriev ware robbed by the reputation of Gordeeva and Grinkov.

KKonas · May 15, 2016

stella luna said:
Jan Hoffman, the East German judge who had the deciding vote, later saw a video of Oksana's performances and said he had missed the two-footed jumps and had he seen them he would have voted for Nancy.

I find this statement by Hoffman a little ridiculous. He was a four-time Olympian, the 1980 Olympic silver medalist, the 1974 & 1980 World Champion, and a four-time (1974, 1977–1979) European Champion. For such an experienced skater and judge "missing" seeing a couple of Oksana's questionable jump landings sounds more like manufacturing an excuse to please critics. I was there in Lillehammer attended every practice and final. It was a close decision and although Nancy did a technically better job - she was more mechanical - not really in touch with her music, unlike the sprite from Ukraine who "charmed" the audience and judges.

stella luna · May 15, 2016

KKonas said:
I find this statement by Hoffman a little ridiculous. He was a four-time Olympian, the 1980 Olympic silver medalist, the 1974 & 1980 World Champion, and a four-time (1974, 1977–1979) European Champion. For such an experienced skater and judge "missing" seeing a couple of Oksana's questionable jump landings sounds more like manufacturing an excuse to please critics. I was there in Lillehammer attended every practice and final. It was a close decision and although Nancy did a technically better job - she was more mechanical - not really in touch with her music, unlike the sprite from Ukraine who "charmed" the audience and judges.

Figure skating judges have never been in the habit of explaining themselves. Quite the opposite, really.

tulosai · May 15, 2016

Mathman said:
As for the 1994 Olympics, IMHO Mishkutenok and Dmetriev ware robbed by the reputation of Gordeeva and Grinkov.

This is one I'd better like to see discussed...

4everchan · May 15, 2016

lol nope

I just felt that the opening poster was clear that she wanted to stay away from recent competition and that we should focus on 6.0 era.

there are plenty of other threads to talk about IJS "bad scoring" we see them all year... so perhaps i am simply reacting a bit too strongly but I was happy to find a place where we could discuss old programs, old rivalries in a more civil manner. I am sure you will find another thread to discuss 2013 ... there are TONS

As for my username which you got backwards, I chose it when Patrick was already retired... i had no idea how much hate he had received on these boards... I picked the name because I felt his presence on the ice was missed, because to me, he would always be unique and perhaps the greatest master of the blade of all times... it was not to show uberism or anything like that, but mostly a dedication to a retired skater....

now that he has come back and shown the world all he is about

my username gets interpreted in so many different ways

karlowens2 said:
No call to speak derisively to others. I see you're Chan4ever and you thought I was going after Patrick. Nothing could be further from my mind. I just picked up on a different aspect of the thread. Never mind, I'll find another thread.

Meoima · May 15, 2016

Technically speaking, Nancy should have won (even though I can't stand her choreography

).
But yeah if we talk about sparkle... well :eek:

hwell:

4everchan · May 15, 2016

Mathman said:
To me, "wuz-robbed" means something a little different in the IJS era compared to earlier times. In 2013 Denis Ten was not robbed by the judges getting it wrong, but by the scoring system itself. Patrick Chan was so far ahead after the short program that it didn't matter what happened in the long.

As for the 1994 Olympics, IMHO Mishkutenok and Dmetriev ware robbed by the reputation of Gordeeva and Grinkov.

point 1) I agree partially

it is very true that people tend to forget that there is a SP.... and also that despite mistakes, some skaters just have a more difficult content. Patrick didn't fall on his two big elements (both quads were stellar) ... so with IJS, if you are going to land the big elements, you have room to make mistakes later on.... and people forget that too.

point 2) I loved M/D... I loved G/G ... It's a long time ago but I'd have to look at those carefully..... Like Tulosai, I agree it could be our next discussion ?

mrrice · May 15, 2016

4everchan said:
lol nope I just felt that the opening poster was clear that she wanted to stay away from recent competition and that we should focus on 6.0 era.

there are plenty of other threads to talk about IJS "bad scoring" we see them all year... so perhaps i am simply reacting a bit too strongly but I was happy to find a place where we could discuss old programs, old rivalries in a more civil manner. I am sure you will find another thread to discuss 2013 ... there are TONS

As for my username which you got backwards, I chose it when Patrick was already retired... i had no idea how much hate he had received on these boards... I picked the name because I felt his presence on the ice was missed, because to me, he would always be unique and perhaps the greatest master of the blade of all times... it was not to show uberism or anything like that, but mostly a dedication to a retired skater.... now that he has come back and shown the world all he is about my username gets interpreted in so many different ways

I shouldn't laugh but, I just can't help it. I swear that I don't pick my favorites on anything other than the way they make me feel when I watch them. The first time saw Patrick he was just a cute little thing with spectacular body line. He looked 12, though I'm sure he was older but, I knew he would be a champion some day. I was right..:dance: It's too bad about Joshua's injury problems because he definitely made me feel the same way I felt when I saw Patrick for the first time.

You know who else made me feel that way..........Ross and Ricky. I'm still holding out hope for those two.

Mathman · May 15, 2016

4everchan said:
point 1) I agree partially it is very true that people tend to forget that there is a SP.... and also that despite mistakes, some skaters just have a more difficult content. Patrick didn't fall on his two big elements (both quads were stellar) ... so with IJS, if you are going to land the big elements, you have room to make mistakes later on.... and people forget that too.

This is what I think (since we have evidently abandoned our resolve not to discuss recent competitions on this thread, regardless of the original poster's intent :laugh:

).). To me, the IJS has, to some extent, "robbed" the viewer of some of the interest and excitement that we used to feel.

I do not like carrying over the SP points to the free skate. To me, that is like, say, allowing a baseball team to carry over runs scored in game 1 of the world series to game 2. No, no, no. What you get to carry over is the win. The old method was more like, first you try to win the semi-finals (or at least to place in the top three), and what this earns you is the right to compete in the finals. To me, this makes for a more interesting and exciting competition. (I understand that other viewers have different opinions on this judgment.)

About landing some big elements early and then getting a pass from mistakes later, I personally prefer big elements early and no mistakes later. Well, sometimes I don't get get what I want.

Still, a program that builds excitement throughout up to the final electrifying headless scratch spin -- well, I feel "wizrobbed" if i don't get that for my money.

"Did you enjoy the figure skating competition last night?" "I guess so. Somebody got 172.34 points and another guy got 169.71 points."

4everchan · May 15, 2016

well ijs vs 6.0 is a thread in itself and i am sure it has been seen on this forum plenty of times....

You know, we can also see it the other way around... it was really bad in the 6.0 era when someone didn't do great in the SP and ended up in 4th or 5th, but then largely dominated the LP and couldn't contend for gold.... both systems have their pros and cons.... what IJS has done for some viewers and we saw that this year, is the craze for the World Record.... that wasn't part of figure skating before IJS and is now a big marketing tool for the sport. There is nothing like chasing utopian numbers to make people interested in something... like when the men broke the 10sec mark in the 100 M.... etc

so pros and cons... with all systems...

Now... back to M/D vs G/G... i haven't had time to revisit the 1994 videos but will do tonight..... in the meantime... if we have covered OB Vs NK, i would support the exploration of the 1994 pairs

Mathman · May 15, 2016

M&D: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNDqZuQVcQg

G&G: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNDqZuQVcQg

Mishkutenok and Dmetriev crushed it. Superb and original choreography. Fine elements. Left me cheering.

Gordeeva and Grinkov. A small mistake by Sergei on a side-by-side jump, but "two skating as one" like no one since has attained. Left me crying.

Mathman · May 15, 2016

4everchan said:
... what IJS has done for some viewers and we saw that this year, is the craze for the World Record....

I personally don't care so much about the world record, but one cool thing that the ISJ has brought us is the "slay count." My guy, way back in the field after the short program, puts up a big number in the free and then "slays" one opponent after another and moves up to 8th from 22nd. :rock:

Plus, you get to hang on to your hopes until the bitter end: he's in second place with six more to go. Will he hang on for a medal? :rock:

Meoima · May 15, 2016

That 1994 was so controversial in my opinion, M/D should have won it. But I've always preferred to watch Katya more... Lol

LiamForeman · May 15, 2016

stella luna said:
And Nancy would have stood a better chance at gold had Tonya been barred from competition. It was a distracting, zoolike atmosphere that probably resulted in a bit of a bias against the U.S. Tonya had no reason to be there.

I agree with this. Lillehamer was a circus and undignified due to Tonya. I think Nancy was hurt by Tonya's shoe lace incident. Americans are not popular, and almost universally disliked, and here we're at the Olympics getting all the attention and bringing all the drama. Katarina Witt was incredibly upset that her comeback didn't even register due to the T/N circus. It took Oksana a huge crash with Tanja Swewchenko to even get noted. If I was a judge I'd probably have had a subtle anti-American bias.

I know this won't be popular, but I think Nancy and her lover/married agent milked that whole whack. All she had was a bruise to her knee and you'd think by the way her PR team talked that she was near paralysis. I'm sure she had taken even more painful falls to her knee during practice than just a whack with a baton. Oh well, that was 22 years ago.

Crossover · May 15, 2016

Aside from M/D and G/G when I had a hard time distinguishing pairs and ice dance back then, IIRC only American media complaint little about the final result in the ladies's event, not the rest of the world. As a person who watched the competition live remember that many people were so disappointed in no big showdown between Nancy and Tonya as opposed to the all buzz about "the incident". I didn't think Nancy was robbed at all although I wanted her to be the Olympic champion by overcoming the hardship she suffered over everyone, especially Tonya who got accused of being the villain of the incident. I was so disappointed at the weird music and choreography looking like aerobics despite her gorgeous costume and looks worthy to be a cosmetic commercial model.

4everchan · May 15, 2016

watched pairs podium from 1994..

it is a very tough call.... I actually, surprisingly, enjoyed B/E way more than I remembered back then... wow!!! those lifts!!!! WOW!!!

In terms of SBS : M/D have a clear edge

Throws... all teams had one throw landed a bit roughly IIRC

Choreo/presentation : all 3 teams with different styles but all polished and refined.... details... etc

WOW factor : flexibility and flair of D/M, elegance and beautiful lines for G/G, power in the lifts and twists for B/E

based on the LP alone... I have a hard time giving it to G/G... singling a jump, wobble on the double flip, out of synch at the end of the SBS spin...
so i'd think that M/D could claim having been robbed as they were for sure seen as Russians number 2

HOWEVER

the biggest robbed pair was B/E as they had won the previous world championships and had to face two legendary couples who were reinstated for the the games

keasus · May 15, 2016

mrrice said:
Whenever this discussion comes up, I think It's too bad that most people have completely forgotten about the Bronze Medalist and future World Champion...Lu Chen.

I agree. I would have placed Lu Chen second in the free behind Nancy (based on technical content and execution) , and Oksana third. I never understood the appeal of Oksana. Nancy was one of my least favorite skaters, but she was the best of the night and should have won decidedly.

dailytg20 · May 16, 2016

For me it was a coin toss. One thing that may have affected my perception of the free results is that Nancy started off shaky and ended strong, while Oksana started off strong and then the wheels of her choreography started falling off towards the end.

And that last second toe loop which had her facing the wrong direction at the end for a second left an underwhelming impression. It was like a student rushing into the classroom just in time for a term paper deadline but you can see that her hair is all pushed to one side because she clearly fell asleep at the end of an all-nighter. I see you, girl!

But I know what it's like when you are young and on a budget, so I give Oksana some points to make up for the costume deficit. Therefore I'm okay with her win.

blue_idealist · May 16, 2016

Based on the LPs alone, which I've seen recently, I think M/D should have won in '94. I haven't seen the short programs in a long time, though, if I've even ever seen them.

MaxSwagg · May 16, 2016

G/G were the rightful winners. The skating skills, the effortless movement across the ice, the chemistry, interpretation, the unison in every movement...that is pairs skating.

Analyzing Kerrigan and Baiul's Oly programs

Mathman

KKonas

stella luna

tulosai

4everchan

Meoima

Match Penalty

4everchan

mrrice

Mathman

4everchan

Mathman

Mathman

Meoima

Match Penalty

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam

Crossover

All Hail the Queen

4everchan

keasus

dailytg20

blue_idealist

MaxSwagg

Match Penalty

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