Kovtun leaves Buyanova, goes to Goncharenko

silverfoxes said:

As to Kovtun trying pairs, I don't see it happening because his quads are really his ace in the hole (when he lands them).

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Even after landing three quads in FS at Russian Nationals, he managed to lose TES to Kolyada with one quad and Petrov with no quad. It's no use landing three quads if you end up not doing much else and lose points. Reducing the number of quads is the obvious thing to do, but he'd have to replace them with something that would give him a reasonable score. His triple jumps aren't ideal either. Maybe he should be sent to Chebotareva, she knows how to simplify people's programs so that they actually get higher scores But seriously, what he is doing now obviously isn't working. It's almost like he needs to go back to the drawing board. Hopefully a coaching change will do some good.

silverlake22 said:

I hope we see another quad (4s, 4lo?) from Kolyada next season.

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4S. He's been doing it in practice for a few years already, it's time to stabilise it in competition. There are also plans to learn 4Lz over the next season. I don't see him doing a 4Lo, his triple loop isn't really a big jump.

LadyB said:

I still have a weak spot for Max Kovtun and I don't believe he's a lost cause. I can't help but thinking that his problems are mainly to do with regular growing up problems, just that it is a lot harder for a top athlete to find himself and his place
in the world off the ice. His instagram pictures of his gangsta rapper mates, big BMW and Gucci shoes... he's still very young, and maybe emotionally even younger than 20. I remember the boys at Uni in my day, some where already men, some were still like teenagers. He needs to sort a few things out and it seemed to me that Buyanova is not the type of
parent' young skaters sometimes need.
Once he has a bit matured in himself, he can fully concentrate on skating again and I have no doubt, he is able to give us remarkable performances. Come on lad, you can do it!

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Perhaps he has "the stomach full of warm milk": this is a Russian way of saying that Plushenko once said, meaning some skaters have no craving for victories and big results because they were born with a golden spoon in their mouth (I think this is an equivalent way of saying in English). Indeed Maxin seems born in a well-to-do family, wthout any sacrifices done in order to become a first class skater.

rosy14 said:

Perhaps he has "the stomach full of warm milk": this is a Russian way of saying that Plushenko once said, meaning some skaters have no craving for victories and big results because they were born with a golden spoon in their mouth (I think this is an equivalent way of saying in English). Indeed Maxin seems born in a well-to-do family, wthout any sacrifices done in order to become a first class skater.

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Born with a silver spoon is the English saying you were looking for.

rosy14 said:

Perhaps he has "the stomach full of warm milk": this is a Russian way of saying that Plushenko once said, meaning some skaters have no craving for victories and big results because they were born with a golden spoon in their mouth (I think this is an equivalent way of saying in English). Indeed Maxin seems born in a well-to-do family, wthout any sacrifices done in order to become a first class skater.

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"Stomach full of warm milk" is a Russian saying? I am a native speaker and I have never heard it.

winky97 said:

Born with a silver spoon is the English saying you were looking for.

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Thank you. We say in Italian " born with the shirt".

vorravorra said:

"Stomach full of warm milk" is a Russian saying? I am a native speaker and I have never heard it.

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Plushenko told it was a Russian saying, which he translated literally in English, and then he explained the meaning. Perhaps it's a saying from his part of Russia. In Italy we have regional sayings, and Italy is much, much smaller than Russia...

LadyB said:

I still have a weak spot for Max Kovtun and I don't believe he's a lost cause. I can't help but thinking that his problems are mainly to do with regular growing up problems, just that it is a lot harder for a top athlete to find himself and his place in the world off the ice. His instagram pictures of his gangsta rapper mates, big BMW and Gucci shoes... he's still very young, and maybe emotionally even younger than 20. I remember the boys at Uni in my day, some where already men, some were still like teenagers. He needs to sort a few things out and it seemed to me that Buyanova is not the type of 'substitute parent' young skaters sometimes need.
Once he has a bit matured in himself, he can fully concentrate on skating again and I have no doubt, he is able to give us remarkable performances. Come on lad, you can do it!

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How come Kovtun still gets this sort of coddling? Artur didn't get any of this!

silverfoxes said:

That doesn't paint a very pleasant picture of Buyanova, in my opinion. I haven't heard of other coaches aggressively trying to poach skaters or withholding resources from their perceived rivals. By the way, how does this Gus person know so much and get away with sharing all that gossip? You would think some people might have a problem with him sharing so much "insider" info.

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Well, like everybody else on Internet forums he’s writing under a username, not his real name, so how can they know who he is? He doesn’t write about any close meetings, just the info that’s apparently common knowledge at TSKA. So he could be working there in any capacity, or be a skater there, or be a parent of a skater, who knows? It’s too wide a net.

rosy14 said:

Perhaps he has "the stomach full of warm milk": this is a Russian way of saying that Plushenko once said, meaning some skaters have no craving for victories and big results because they were born with a golden spoon in their mouth (I think this is an equivalent way of saying in English). Indeed Maxim seems born in a well-to-do family, without any sacrifices done in order to become a first class skater.

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I think even to achieve what Kovtun has achieved one has to work very hard. Most skaters never get into GPF, for example, or win GP events or European medals or Jr. GPF. And I think he does have ambition – he got very upset when he didn’t get high scores at GPF, for example. It seems to me that his main problems are his nerves and components scores. And all the expectations piled on him by the Rus Fed from very early on haven’t helped with the nerves, of course. But 20 is way too early to give up, and he seems to have a lot of natural talent, so I hope we haven’t seen the best of him yet.

karne said:

How come Kovtun still gets this sort of coddling? Artur didn't get any of this!

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I think it’s because by the time Gachinsky transferred to TSKA he didn’t show the kind of results Kovtun did (8-9th at GP events, 6th at Russian Nationals, compared to Kovtun’s gold at Nationals and GP events).

Spiral said:

I think it’s because by the time Gachinsky transferred to TSKA he didn’t show the kind of results Kovtun did (8-9th at GP events, 6th at Russian Nationals, compared to Kovtun’s gold at Nationals and GP events).

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Artur had a World medal, then came 18th the following year and was pilloried. Kovtun got 17th in his Worlds debut (with a lower TCS, it should be added) and in the pre-Olympic Worlds, no less, and he got coddled and pampered. This disparity in treatment started well before the last season.

karne said:

How come Kovtun still gets this sort of coddling? Artur didn't get any of this!

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Artur wasn't Buyanova's student, his main coach was Uspenski. However CSKA did give Artur a coaching job at the club after he retired, so he is being taken care of.

He needs a new attitude, maybe new coaching is what he needs. IMHO he telegraphs his jumps and he looks down at the ice too often. When he does that he looks apologetic. He has no natural flow to his skating and his PCS have been way too high in my view. To being a contender for the top 5 in the 14-15 season to bombing in the 2016 worlds is a matter to be taken seriously, if Russia wants a podium finish in Korea.

senatormls said:

He needs a new attitude, maybe new coaching is what he needs. IMHO he telegraphs his jumps and he looks down at the ice too often. When he does that he looks apologetic. He has no natural flow to his skating and his PCS have been way too high in my view. To being a contender for the top 5 in the 14-15 season to bombing in the 2016 worlds is a matter to be taken seriously, if Russia wants a podium finish in Korea.

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I agree that there might be something wrong with his attitude. Right now he's not Russia's only hope and it's still too early to guess whom they'd send to Korea in 2018. For someone like Kovtun who has mad a name for himself at a relatively early age, it would be very disappointing if he couldn't make the Olympic team.

Kovtun is a difficult case. Would a lot of minor competitions help him not fall apart when it really matters or would they be of no use? Would less coddling motivate him or make him throw in the towel? Same with taking away the pressure that comes with being Russia's number one. He might have done better if he had been left alone to develop at a natural pace like Kolyada. But would he have been dedicated enough to travel to the rink 2.5 hours one way 6 days a week, or would he have simply given up? It isn't clear just how much he likes skating rather than the perks that come with it. What effect would a threat to take away the perks have on him? He has definitely been spoilt far too much, but would trying to fix it now work? Everyone seems to agree that something needs to be done, but nobody quite knows where to start. I doubt he himself really knows where to start.

After his success at Worlds Kolyada will probably have some extra pressure going into next season. I remember a commentator said that he kind of surprised himself at Worlds. But Kolyada is now 21 and probably better equipped to deal with the pressure and the attention on him than 17 year old Kovtun when Russia decided to send him to Europeans and Worlds. I don't know whether that hurt Kovtun or not in the long run, but he's basically been growing up in a fishbowl for a few years now, and giving underwhelming performances at important competitions could be horrible for your psyche when you know everyone is watching you and the expectations are quite high.

karne said:

Artur had a World medal, then came 18th the following year and was pilloried. Kovtun got 17th in his Worlds debut (with a lower TCS, it should be added) and in the pre-Olympic Worlds, no less, and he got coddled and pampered. This disparity in treatment started well before the last season.

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I think the TAT affiliation is the main reason for the protection of Kovtun, though I do feel bad about what happened to him at the Olympics. I wonder if that messed him up psychologically because he had been pretty consistent up until Sochi and since then he's been a wildcard.

silverlake22 said:

I think the TAT affiliation is the main reason for the protection of Kovtun, though I do feel bad about what happened to him at the Olympics. I wonder if that messed him up psychologically because he had been pretty consistent up until Sochi and since then he's been a wildcard.

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What happened to Kovtun was that he placed behind both voronov and menshov at 2014 euros. That was all his fault.

karne said:

Artur had a World medal, then came 18th the following year and was pilloried. Kovtun got 17th in his Worlds debut (with a lower TCS, it should be added) and in the pre-Olympic Worlds, no less, and he got coddled and pampered. This disparity in treatment started well before the last season.

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Oh, I thought you were asking why Gachinsky didn't get the same treatment as Kovtun after TAT had taken a personal interest in Gachinski. In his earlier years Gachinsky wasn't even in TSKA, so he wasn't coddled. Neither was Kovtun before he transferred to Buyanova. Generally, I think only Buyanova and Tarasova have the kind of clout with the Rus Fed to be able to provide their students with special favors. Other skaters can only get favors if they're superstars or obviously and consistently the best of the field, and even then not always.

Then again, Gachinsky did get a TEB spot at COR this past season, after 3 seasons of consistently unsuccessful perfomances. So one can't say he wasn't coddled at TSKA or wasn't given umpteenth chances. He could have done what Kolyda did - he had the opportunity. But he was injured, so he withdrew from COR, and then from the Nationals, and then announced his retirement. I don't know the nature of his injury, so I don't know if it was that that made him decide to retire, or he thought that he couldn't come back to the level he'd been at in 2011. Remember, Kovtun has had successful performances amidst the unsuccessful ones; Gachinsky didn't in the last four seasons. But I also regret that he hasn't realized his obviously very considerable potential. I just don't think it was anybody's fault, in particular. He got GP assignments, he competed at Nationals, he was kept on the national team, so his expenses were fully covered. If he'd done well, he would have been sent to championships. I think Kovtun was sent to the pre-Olympic Worlds as the only Russian man out of sheer desperation on the part of the Rus Fed. Later on, Kovtun, Voronov, Menshov, Pitkeev, Petrov and Kolyada were sent to Euros and/or Worlds in various seasons based on merit. As for criticism after unsuccessful performances, Kovtun also got an earful after the 2013 Worlds, even though it was his first Sr. Worlds, and he was under enormous pressure to gain Olympic berths for his country. Some people choose to have a very long career in sports, despite consistently inconsistent performances, like Menshov; others turn pro, as Gachinsky also could have done; and still others leave skating. I regret that I'll never see him skate again, but it's his decision and his life.

vorravorra said:

"Stomach full of warm milk" is a Russian saying? I am a native speaker and I have never heard it.

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That was oroginally Mishin's sentence I think ...Papa Mishin and his metaphores..

http://www.newizv.ru/sport/2009-10-26/116376-trener-aleksej-mishin.html

......
On one hand, many start figure skating to become like Plushenko…. and on the other… to take away the challenges from the young athlete is no help at all, because you cannot climb to the top and become a champion, if you swim in the warm, sweet milk.
............


http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2014/04/30/73847538/the-russian-lady-defined-the-2013-14-season

Scott Hamilton said. "Evgeni Plushenko told me years ago that the reason he was successful was it's easy to defeat people who have a belly full of warm milk. He was hungry. I think that when a country gets humiliated, they circle the wagons."

And Mishin said it about Artur Gachinsky after his bronze medal at WCH. :yes:

Spiral said:

I just don't think it was anybody's fault, in particular.

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Yes, obviously it's not the RuFed's fault, after they strung him up, pilloried him, and hung him out to dry. No, that had nothing to do with it.

Spiral said:

If he'd done well, he would have been sent to championships. I think Kovtun was sent to the pre-Olympic Worlds as the only Russian man out of sheer desperation on the part of the Rus Fed.

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2013-2014 Russian Nationals results:

1. Plushenko
2. Voronov
3. Menshov
4. Gachinski
5. Kovtun

And the RuFed had the HIDE to claim they were trying to go for youth. Artur is just one year older than Kovtun!

Spiral said:

As for criticism after unsuccessful performances, Kovtun also got an earful after the 2013 Worlds, even though it was his first Sr. Worlds, and he was under enormous pressure to gain Olympic berths for his country.

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Oh, please! He was pampered and coddled and told it was all right because it was his first Worlds, it was a learning experience, blah blah blah, it's okay. You know what Artur did at HIS first Worlds? At 17? He won a damn medal. And then he had ONE bad competition and he was ripped apart by his own federation, pilloried and destroyed. How many people remember that there were TWO men at Nice in 2012? Who can actually name who the second one was? Hardly anyone, because all the focus afterwards was on smashing Artur to pieces and ignoring that Voronov also failed in his job. The RuFed destroyed Artur after Nice. He was treated worse than Kovtun could ever have nightmares about being treated. Kovtun was pampered and coddled and spoiled, and told everything was okay. Artur was torn to shreds and told he was a failure, a disgrace, a shame. And Artur has more talent in his little finger than Kovtun could ever hope to have, and a vastly superior jump technique to boot.

So no, I ain't buying any of this "poor Kovtun" horse manure.

vorravorra said:

It was hardly Kolyada's fault that Kovtun skated such a bad SP (unless he looked up the scores before his skate which you are not supposed to do and Kovtun especially should never do). If Kovtun had done his best and Kolyada had still overtaken him, then there would be a reason to be shocked.

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I didn't mean it was anyone's fault really but consider this: Kovtun goes into Worlds in Boston as the Russian No 1, he skates in the final group in the sp. His sp wasn't that bad really he just makes that typical for him mistake of tripling the quad & losing the element and he plunges to the 13th place whereas his teammate Kolyada skates a perfect sp in the first group and propellers himself unexpectedly into 6th to skate the lp in the final group so their positions sort of get reversed. I don't know of course what was going through Kovtun's mind but I can imagine this situation WAS a serious shock to him. Kolyada was hot on his heels all the season but that was the first time Kolyada overtook him in most spectacular fashion. If Kovtun was a fighter by nature he would use it as an extra motivation to come back in the LP (as in fairness he did many a time in the similar scenario ie after a bad sp) instead he completely bombed. To 'finish him off', Kolyada ends in the 4th only 3 points from the bronze, stealing all the spotlight. Psychophysically it must have been a hard pill to swallow for a spoilt rotten, golden boy of TSKA.