Analyzing G/G and M/D Lillehammer programs

Here's the second installment of the "Wuzrobbed" series! Unfortunately, their names won't fit in the thread title...but this is about the battle of the Olympic champions, Ekaterina Gordeeva/Sergei Grinkov and Natalia Mishkutenok/Artur Dmitriev! I had this in mind to debate, and a few posters brought it up in the Nancy/Oksana thread as well! While G/G's win over M/D is certainly not controversial, both pairs skated great and some people (like me) would've preferred to see M/D as the victors. Plus, their styles are so different, so it's interesting to see the reasoning people have for preferring one couple over another!

Although they retired a few years after winning OGM in 1988, G/G returned to amateur competition for the 1994 Olympics. Meanwhile, M/D shot to the top during G/G's retirement, winning OGM in 1992 and two World titles. Despite having more recent World/Olympic success, however, M/D were not favored to win over living legends G/G. And they didn't, in either program.

G/G SP
M/D SP

These SP videos are on the lengthy side, but there's some interesting interviews in each one! Queen Moskvina

G/G LP
M/D LP

I'm too lazy to discuss each program thoroughly at the moment, but suffice it to say that I think Tamara Moskvina creates the most gorgeous, interesting, and difficult programs. She does it now for Kavaguti/Smirnov, she did it for Bereznaya/Sikharulidze, and before them she did it for M/D. Her programs are art, and when a pair executes them perfectly, inhabiting and expressing the music and the emotion, there's nothing I find more beautiful.

G/G were better skaters and much more precise and perfect, but IMO their programs don't excite me like M/D's do. While in exhibitions and pro competitions they were sublime together, I found their competitive programs in 1994 and in 1988 left me cold. In appreciation of what they can do, but still cold.

Then again, once I do a more thorough viewing of the technical content and its quality, I might decide that G/G's technical perfection ultimately outweighs my subjective preference for M/D's style. Hopefully this time I won't take two weeks to watch them in more detail!

well Brasseur and Eisler were the reigning world Champions...

M&D had a better program and executed it better. G&G are sublime, but here they were outskated. B&E are hardly to be mentioned here.

4everchan said:

well Brasseur and Eisler were the reigning world Champions...

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Oops, I misunderstood/misread the wikipedia page for Artur! That's embarrassing. You're right though, according to the wiki page it looks like M/D took off the 1992-1993 season. I'll fix the post! Thanks!

No worries. If I recall after Albertville, I thought they had retired and went pro. So when not only them, but gordeeva and grinkov came back, the Canadians were no longer favourites. They didn't have a great short program. Isabelle had a cracked rib. However, I thought they skated their free so well. As a gordeeva and grinkov fan, I was happy to see them back and that they won but I felt their LP was only third best that night. Mishkuteniok and dimitriev had outperformed them and their choreography was very interesting. Brasseur and eisler had skated almost flawlessly as well including the most exciting lifts of the competition in a polished style, yet very different from the Russian aesthetics. So under cop I think we would have had different results.

andromache said:

Oops, I misunderstood/misread the wikipedia page for Artur! That's embarrassing. You're right though, according to the wiki page it looks like M/D took off the 1992-1993 season. I'll fix the post! Thanks!

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I have a question since you're a moderator. Are we allowed to use the shorthand in posts? Is it just for thread titles that we cannot ? Thanks.

Mathman said:

M&D had a better program and executed it better. G&G are sublime, but here they were outskated. B&E are hardly to be mentioned here.

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And well I disagree brasseur and eisler skated a wonderful lp.

M/D had a good enough LP to contend, and their execution should have had them win.

G/G have grown on me over time, but I have never felt their '94 Olympic LP deserved the gold.

For those who want to poke around: I believe Phil Hersh agreed with me in his Chicago Tribune report of the event and was not happy to see G/G pushed over M/D.

Okay, Phil didn't outright state his opinion, but this makes for interesting reading: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...nd-dmitriev-world-champions-isabelle-brasseur

Interesting article. A bit rude towards the Canadians. They were not the only ones uneasy about the return of the pros. It was a new rule after all

LeReveur said:

Okay, Phil didn't outright state his opinion, but this makes for interesting reading: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...nd-dmitriev-world-champions-isabelle-brasseur

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LeReveur said:

Okay, Phil didn't outright state his opinion, but this makes for interesting reading: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...nd-dmitriev-world-champions-isabelle-brasseur

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Thanks for sharing! This is super interesting as a 1994 opinion. Loved the quote from Moskvina.

Also this reminded me of what is, to me, the more shocking aspect of the result: the fact that it was nearly unanimous among the judges.

ETA: I also appreciate the vintage Hersh snark.

Yes. I agree. The nearly unanimous judging. As if it had been decided ahead of time that gordeeva grinkov were far superior. I was surprised to see a 5/4 split for the Canadians. Wow. They were far ahead of the other pairs contending for the bronze. I've been pro cop but the last two threads are making me even more pro cop I think preferences, like Moskvina mentions, are less of a factor for at least, the tes. Anyways, I don't want to turn this thread into a cop versus 6.0 thread. If I had been a judge, I would have given a 6 for artur's hotness in those tights.

Katia and Sergei had slightly superior skating skills, FAR superior and more difficult lifts, slightly better pair spins, more difficult SBS spins and overall a better constructed program with sensical choreography that highlighted their sensuous response to the music.

Mishkutenok and Dmitriev, I feel for them. They delivered a strong performance but the finesse and interpretation is severely lacking when compared to their compatriots. The lifts were simpler and the program construction - particularly the music cuts - were difficult to tolerate.

I give:

Short Program

Free Skating

And, thus, Katia and Sergei win (2.0 to 2.5 for TFP).

John Nicks thought M/D programs were gimmicky. John Nicks is also a dinosaur in the sport. No innovation = no progress. You can be pure all you want, but I don't pay to watch cross overs.

SP.

G/G 5.5 TES 5.9 PRE
M/D 5.8 TES 5.9 PRE

LP.

G/G 5.4 TES 5.8 PRE
M/D 5.8 TES 6.0 PRE. Shouldn't even be close here. I bet that Rach interpretation was everything Rach dreamed off. Only matched by Mao Asada in the most impressive LP by any lady ever in 2014 Sochi.
M/D were versatile skaters. They were mesmerizing in that lyrical Liszt piece just a year or 2 before that. They can match G/G in that department easily. And they can do passionate very well too. Definitely robbed. The live audience agreed. Funny some people think they lacked interpretation when everyone who saw it was grasping for air at the end because of how they interpreted the Rach piece.

While G/G's win over M/D is certainly not controversial

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Actually I think it is controversial. Otherwise we wouldn't discuss it more than 20 years later .

Personally what I can't understand is that in the eyes of judges G&G won so evidently. Not seeing their programs, but just scores, one would think that they were so much better than M&D .

4everchan said:

I have a question since you're a moderator. Are we allowed to use the shorthand in posts? Is it just for thread titles that we cannot ? Thanks.

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It is always better to write out the names of skaters in full and not abbreviate (and also to look up the correct spelling ). This is because sometimes it might not be clear to everyone which skaters are being referenced.

This is especially desirable in thread titles so that they will show up in Internet searches. As andromache notes above, though, this isn't always possible because of restrictions on the length of titles.

I love M/D's 1992 long. When I look at their 1994 programs, I think of words like "interesting," "innovative," etc. I would probably give them the edge in creating a moment.

Having said all of that, when I actually put myself in the place of a judge and think figure skating G/G win. Given that I'm not an expert I'm not quite sure how to explain it but G/G do things in a "textbook" fashion. Even with the bobbles when I'm imagining how I would want a team to look and move over the ice "technically" and the confidence I want to have in their throws etc. I'm thinking G/G. M/D did nothing wrong and I think they rightfully won the crowd.

Thanks for the answer Mathman. I thought not using full names could lead to infractions. I understand why it's important. Re spelling and typos, I think many of us use phones or tablets to connect to GS and well, sometimes these devices have a mind of their own. That's why it is easier to use the initials.

4everchan said:

Thanks for the answer Mathman. I thought not using full names could lead to infractions.

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What leads to infractions are derogatory nicknames, or working a skater's name intro a word in order to mock or belittle someone. "inflation" and "Yuna fan" are frowned upon, for instance.

thanks for clarifying. not a chance I'd use those two

Mathman said:

What leads to infractions are derogatory nicknames, or working a skater's name intro a word in order to mock or belittle someone. "inflation" and "Yuna fan" are frowned upon, for instance.

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Rossig said:

Actually I think it is controversial. Otherwise we wouldn't discuss it more than 20 years later .

Personally what I can't understand is that in the eyes of judges G&G won so evidently. Not seeing their programs, but just scores, one would think that they were so much better than M&D .

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G/G made mistakes/had wobbles and M/D were really on that evening. Under the 6.0 - system that should have brought them the gold IMO. I really was surprised that evening as well that it was not even close. They didn't do a single triple jumpe (second axel instead).