How choreography is developed

Krislite · May 30, 2016

I just watched this fluff piece on Kristi Yamaguchi's 1992 Olympic program, and how she and Sandra Bezic developed her program over five days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7-6BF1W_8I

Is this pretty typical of how choreographers put a program together? I wasn't expecting it to be so collaborative and organic. I had this notion that choreographers would have the moves and steps largely planned out ahead of time and then they just tell the skater how to perform it. In this case, Sandra didn't hear the music cut until her first day with Kristi, and it looked like she was thinking of what moves should go with each musical phrase. She was developing the program at the same time that she was teaching it to Kristi.

karne · May 30, 2016

No expert here, but I think most choreography is organic in that way. Seeing it in your head is one thing, doing it on the ice is another. Do you know how many comps my beautiful choreography has won in my head? :laugh:

But then I go to the rink, and what I thought would work doesn't. So you listen to the music again, and something else will grow into it.

loopy · May 30, 2016

We have her coach do choreography, and yes, that is how it happens. The older she fets, the more input she allows my skater. Watching a program become created, is fun.

lyndichee · May 30, 2016

I think it might vary between each choreographer and skater. I really liked this article with Shae-Lynn Bourne about doing choreography with Yuzuru. It isn't clear about who did the music cut however she did get a chance to research Japanese dance and incorporate movements from the movie before working with Yuzuru in person.

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2015/12/18/159903334/bourne-on-hanyu-its-like-hes-from-another-planet

gkelly · May 30, 2016

For one thing, the choreographer has to take into account what the skater can already do, including unique skills s/he might want to showcase, and how easy it would be to learn new skills or new combinations/transitions.

That part of the process would be very different if the choreographer also works with the skater daily as a coach or if the choreographer never met that skater or watched them skate before, or anywhere in between.

bluelutz · May 30, 2016

When I saw the title of this thread,
the first thing came to my mind was this Kristi's fottage.
And what a surprise, you quoated that very video!
Wow, 24 years since I watched it. Time really flies.
And OMG, they were still using LP record!!

As for the process of choreography,
I think this was one of the typical styles for top skaters.
However, it really depends on each cases, skaters, coaches and choreographers.
For some cases, skaters and coaches totally leave it to choreographers to pick the right music for them.
For most of young junior skaters, coaches and choroegraphers do everything for them,
but skaters eventually speak up their minds as they grow older.

As for the preparation part,
Some choreographers do a lot before they hit the ice with skaters, some don't.
However, no matter how much you prepare, you really cannot predict how it will come out/look on ice
because all skaters got different skating styles, moves, expressions, body types, length of arms and legs, etc..
Even if a choreographer creats an impressive move for one particular part of music beforehand,
it could look ugly when one particlar skater actually does that on ice.

I heard many choreographers frustrated to work with Surya Bonaly
because she could not do many skating moves/tricks/skills that most of top skaters easily did.

Skaters go back to choreographers later to alter/fix the program.
As they got used to a new program,
they are able to do each small elements faster than when it was brand new,
and that creats too much extra time between them.
Also more commonly, skaters/coaches alter the choreography to secure the jumps.

I have one dance choreographer friend,
and he usually does not much preparation for new choreography,
maybe some research but not detailed ideas for the actual piece.
He says that he really cannot tell until he works with dancers on the floor.

mrrice · May 30, 2016

I have never choreographed for skaters so it might be different for them. When I choreographed for my students I would always start with a theme or mood that I wanted to convey. From there, I would look for music that would add to the theme. Way back in the early 90's I choreographed a dance to a song called "Peace In The Valley" following the Los Angeles Riots. After visiting the Botanical Gardens here in Clovis, I choreographed a very successful dance to "Kiss From A Rose" by Seal.

Here's the thing. I'm positive that my dances were successful because I knew my dancers better than anyone else. Also, my dancers trusted me which makes a HUGE difference. I remember the looks on my girl's faces when I told them we were going to use "Dream On" by Areosmith. I told them we were going to use hand held mirrors and wear heavy make up. They thought it was cool but the Parents weren't too thrilled until after they saw the finished product. It was a definitely a risk but it really paid off.

I'd also add that costuming makes a huge difference in enhancing the mood of a dance/program. A bad costume can be so distracting that the mood can be missed because some judges can't get past it. Have you ever watched a program and thought.....OMG, What is He or She wearing??:eeking:

mrrice · May 30, 2016

karne said:
No expert here, but I think most choreography is organic in that way. Seeing it in your head is one thing, doing it on the ice is another. Do you know how many comps my beautiful choreography has won in my head? But then I go to the rink, and what I thought would work doesn't. So you listen to the music again, and something else will grow into it.

This has totally happened to me.... :drama:

That's why it's always good to have a friend that you trust have a look at your programs while they're the still in the developmental stage. That way, they can be fixed immediately as it's very stressful and for the dancers to have sections redone after the season gets going.

nolangoh · May 30, 2016

Interesting! I would also like to ask do the choreographers do the step sequences as well? If they do, do they make the patterns of steps and turns?

gkelly · May 30, 2016

nolangoh said:
Interesting! I would also like to ask do the choreographers do the step sequences as well? If they do, do they make the patterns of steps and turns?

If the choreographers are skaters, usually yes. If they're floor dance choreographers hired to work with the skaters, then the step sequence would need to be a collaboration between the choreographer and the coach and/or skater. Especially with IJS where it's important to include the right variety of different steps and turns that a nonskater wouldn't be expected to distinguish.

Blades of Passion · May 30, 2016

Krislite said:
I just watched this fluff piece on Kristi Yamaguchi's 1992 Olympic program, and how she and Sandra Bezic developed her program over five days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7-6BF1W_8I

Is this pretty typical of how choreographers put a program together?

Unfortunately it's not typical of how programs are created anymore. Less time is generally spent on it and the level of spontaneity involved in the process isn't like this anymore. The amount of time used up by the technical elements is much higher and the placements/choreography of the elements is much more strict, so now it's more about creating the footwork sequence, deciding on transitions, and then choosing some arm movements here and there. Or at least that's all people really care about given how the judging turns out.

mrrice · May 30, 2016

gkelly said:
If the choreographers are skaters, usually yes. If they're floor dance choreographers hired to work with the skaters, then the step sequence would need to be a collaboration between the choreographer and the coach and/or skater. Especially with IJS where it's important to include the right variety of different steps and turns that a nonskater wouldn't be expected to distinguish.

This is completely true and the reason I would politely decline an invitation to do choreography for a skater. As much as I love skating, I still don't have a true grasp on the rules. Especially when it comes to footwork and step sequences.

Ares · May 31, 2016

I remember watching some documentary in which Stephane Lambiel was learning flamenco movements from actual flamenco dancer in preperation to his Poeta LP. Vicente Amigo Spanish flamenco composer and guitarist is credited for choreography. Maybe that's why it looked so good (actually it's my favourite competitive program of Stephane), obviously his own talent was a key as well. I know that plenty of figure skaters take dance lessons but it's usually quite seperate from actual skating program.

eppen · May 31, 2016

Ares said:
I remember watching some documentary in which Stephane Lambiel was learning flamenco movements from actual flamenco dancer in preperation to his Poeta LP. Vicente Amigo Spanish flamenco composer and guitarist is credited for choreography. Maybe that's why it looked so good (actually it's my favourite competitive program of Stephane), obviously his own talent was a key as well. I know that plenty of figure skaters take dance lessons but it's usually quite seperate from actual skating program.

The music is by Vicente Amigo, but the choreography was by Antonio Najarro, a flamenco dancer and choreographer who is now the director of the Ballet Nacional de Espana (which is btw a flamenco group). He also did Malaguena for Javier Fernández this season (and has worked with quite a few other figure skaters on choreo).

I'm not a choreographer or a skater, but just from observing what goes on, it seems clear to me that most skaters have eg preferred jump positions for at least the most difficult jumps. And the jump sequence is usually kept more or less the same at least with the most difficult ones. Plus then there is the bonus for second half jumps, a possibility for a tiny break before the second half begins etc. These already limit the choreographers a lot, but at least the best skaters and best choreographers work around these challenges and actually can make the viewer to forget that they are watching a competition program.

A lot depends also on how good the skater is technically - do they need a long preparation for jumps? What can be placed right before and after the elements (and not just jumps)? And so on. If the skater is very good, the first minute and a half with the most difficult elements will not be mostly stroking and jumping, but will also include transistions of all kinds, choreography, setting the tone and character of the program etc. The same usually with the second jumping secton after the midway point.

I think they still use about a week to do a free and a bit less to so a short, so the five days used in the 1990s does not seem that long a time...

E

Ares · May 31, 2016

eppen said:
The music is by Vicente Amigo, but the choreography was by Antonio Najarro, a flamenco dancer and choreographer who is now the director of the Ballet Nacional de Espana (which is btw a flamenco group). He also did Malaguena for Javier Fernández this season (and has worked with quite a few other figure skaters on choreo).

I'm not a choreographer or a skater, but just from observing what goes on, it seems clear to me that most skaters have eg preferred jump positions for at least the most difficult jumps. And the jump sequence is usually kept more or less the same at least with the most difficult ones. Plus then there is the bonus for second half jumps, a possibility for a tiny break before the second half begins etc. These already limit the choreographers a lot, but at least the best skaters and best choreographers work around these challenges and actually can make the viewer to forget that they are watching a competition program.

A lot depends also on how good the skater is technically - do they need a long preparation for jumps? What can be placed right before and after the elements (and not just jumps)? And so on. If the skater is very good, the first minute and a half with the most difficult elements will not be mostly stroking and jumping, but will also include transistions of all kinds, choreography, setting the tone and character of the program etc. The same usually with the second jumping secton after the midway point.

I think they still use about a week to do a free and a bit less to so a short, so the five days used in the 1990s does not seem that long a time...

E

I knew that it would not make sense for someone who is not dancer to make this type of choreography but now I at least now how that dancer with which he practiced is called. I've seen his name being mentioned elsewhere in that forum, probably in context of Javi but surely something connected to ice dancing too. I agree that telegraphing of your jumps reduce what could be done otherwise in program but you can mask that with using right music etc. Program should be tailored for requirements but also adapted to individual skills.

mrrice · May 31, 2016

Ares said:
I remember watching some documentary in which Stephane Lambiel was learning flamenco movements from actual flamenco dancer in preperation to his Poeta LP. Vicente Amigo Spanish flamenco composer and guitarist is credited for choreography. Maybe that's why it looked so good (actually it's my favourite competitive program of Stephane), obviously his own talent was a key as well. I know that plenty of figure skaters take dance lessons but it's usually quite seperate from actual skating program.

I absolutely loved Stephane's Flamenco Program. It was so stylish and you could tell that Stephane really loved performing it as well. The music was also fantastic.

I have a new question for you guys. Other than "Singing In The Rain" has anyone done a program themed around rain? By now, most of you know how much I love tennis and unfortunately, The French Open is having serious problems with rain this year. It got me thinking about another one of my music choices for my students when I used "Rain" by Madonna.

Another piece of music I really like is "Ride Like The Wind" By Christopher Cross and Michael MacDonald. Maybe a weather program would be cool. Kind of like Alissa Czisny's "Winter Into Spring" program in 2011.

"Ride Like The Wind" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur8ftRFb2Ac

eppen · May 31, 2016

Ares said:
I agree that telegraphing of your jumps reduce what could be done otherwise in program but you can mask that with using right music etc. Program should be tailored for requirements but also adapted to individual skills.

A looooooooooong preparation edge cannot really be masked with anything :laugh:

It's just an agonizing wait before the actual jump...

I think Najarro did the Chock and Bates FD this year, plus some of the SDs last year (paso being one the dances). My favourite of those was absolutely the Hurtado-Diaz one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LKxDfbR_RA

I kind of liked Lambiel's Poeta until I saw him perfom together with Najarro on Art on Ice. They were on stage doing the same moves until Stephan went on ice. And I realized then how WEAK Stephane's upper body movements were compared to the dancer, how there was no power, no energy, no tension that are essential to flamenco and I really could not watch Poeta since then without concentrating on the noodle arms...

e

Ares · May 31, 2016

eppen said:
A looooooooooong preparation edge cannot really be masked with anything It's just an agonizing wait before the actual jump...

I think Najarro did the Chock and Bates FD this year, plus some of the SDs last year (paso being one the dances). My favourite of those was absolutely the Hurtado-Diaz one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LKxDfbR_RA

I kind of liked Lambiel's Poeta until I saw him perfom together with Najarro on Art on Ice. They were on stage doing the same moves until Stephan went on ice. And I realized then how WEAK Stephane's upper body movements were compared to the dancer, how there was no power, no energy, no tension that are essential to flamenco and I really could not watch Poeta since then without concentrating on the noodle arms...

e

I know right but certain types of music and program let's say can make it less annoying, especially if skater is fast.

mrrice · May 31, 2016

Ares said:
I know right but certain types of music and program let's say can make it less annoying, especially if skater is fast.

I hate to mention this because I really do love Jeremy Abbott's skating. However, his Tango/Flamenco program was my least favorite of all of his SP's. I do give him props for his costume and stylish hair which certainly added to the theme.

Krislite · Jun 1, 2016

Blades of Passion said:
Unfortunately it's not typical of how programs are created anymore. Less time is generally spent on it and the level of spontaneity involved in the process isn't like this anymore. The amount of time used up by the technical elements is much higher and the placements/choreography of the elements is much more strict, so now it's more about creating the footwork sequence, deciding on transitions, and then choosing some arm movements here and there. Or at least that's all people really care about given how the judging turns out.

It may not be typical, but it doesn't seem to be impossible. There are some well choreographed programs even under CoP. As for technical elements, I'm not so sure jumps take any longer than before. Under 6.0 skaters still tended to telegraph their jumps. Spins and especially step sequences, however, do take a lot longer than before.

It's interesting you say it's more about transitions and arm movements--isn't that what the in-between moves consist of in any case? Or perhaps you meant that they're not developed to form a cohesive theme or musical expression. They're just added for the sake of checking off the component bullet points? That's definitely pretty common. There's not a lot of freedom left in the "free" program.

How choreography is developed

Krislite

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

loopy

lyndichee

gkelly

bluelutz

mrrice

mrrice

nolangoh

Steps and Spirals enthusiast

gkelly

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

mrrice

Ares

eppen

Ares

mrrice

eppen

Ares

mrrice

Krislite

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