2016 JGP St Gervais Ladies FS | Page 13 | Golden Skate

2016 JGP St Gervais Ladies FS

eppen

Medalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Country
Spain
There are two Japanese juniors that are making their debut this season. Both of them has attempted a 3A in their LP at local competitions. One of them has been doing 3A-3T in practice.

That is true, had forgotten about the one I saw earlier! Thanks for reminding! I wonder if the Russians will start working that way also some time soon - after exhausting the distribution of elements strategy, that would be the way to go...

e
 

gsyzf

Medalist
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
I find it hard to believe that it would depend solely on physical differences btw men and women - Midori Ito and Liza Tuktamisheva are both tiny and Mao Asada is not much bigger either... And that 11-yead old Canadian boy doing quads now does not look like a powerhouse. Boyang Jin is basically a stick figure and yet the 4Lz and everything else is there. Does it depend upon girls not being encouraged to take on more technical difficulty?

(puzzled) e

3A to ladies is like quads to men. Most ladies can't rotate or land 3A. It's beyond most of their abilities. Most men can't rotate or land quads either. It's beyond most men's abilities too. Only the better jumpers can jump quads. But men attempt quads more often than ladies because the rules reward quads much more than other jumps, especially after 2010, and also due to the competitive of men's field today, whereas 3A is not rewarded much relative to other triples. So men are encouraged to attempt quads even though they are not capable of doing it, and ladies are discouraged to attempt 3A if they are not capable of doing it. That's why men bomb so often. The average men's quad success rate is about 30%. Only the very few best quad jumpers have a success rate of 60%+. The average ladies' 3A success rate is about 30% too, e.g. Mao and Liza. Only the best 3A jumpers have 60%+ success rate, e.g. Midori Ito.

3-3s to ladies is like 3A to men. The success rate of ladies' 3-3s is very high, an average of 70-80%, similar to men's 3A success rate. The better female 3-3 ladies jumper have a success rate of 90%+. Similarly, the best male 3A jumpers have 90%+ success rate. Ladies won't attempt 3A in competitions unless the rules change, and reward 3A more than 3-3s (e.g. 3A gets a BV of 12 points). Right now 3-3 are rewarded more than 3A. (There are a few ladies who have attempted 3A in competitions. But that's due to other incentives and motivations, not due to rewards by rules. Midori Ito attempted 3A because she was never perceived as an artistic skater and only as a jumper. She could only try harder jumps to stay competitive. Mao still attempts 3A because she did 3A since she was a kid. 3A is her trademark jump. She won't give up her trademark jump. Liza attempts 3A because the Russian ladies' field is too crowded. Every girl is doing the same thing and girls have maxed out the BV. Anyone who is capable of doing 3A will get significant advantage.) Men will attempt quads as long as quads are rewarded more than 3A and the deduction on UR and falls isn't too harsh.

It does look like the expectation for ladies and men are different. If men don't push the technical envelope, there will be an outcry like in Vancouver. If ladies push the technical envelop like Midori Ito, they are somehow only seen as jumpers or incomplete skaters.
 
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Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
What I keep wondering is why there is no similar advance in technical content with the ladies as with men? I mean, the female 3A was introduced back in the late 1980s only to reappear in a relatively similar fledgling manner the 2010s; in between the biggest thing has been 3+3 combos.

The envelope is now being pushed by doing the Medvedeva-Zagitova backend jumping passes to get at least a small advantage in BV which might translate to larger final TES. But why is there no push for women towards doing 3As and quads? If 11-year-old boys can do it, why not girls?

I find it hard to believe that it would depend solely on physical differences btw men and women - Midori Ito and Liza Tuktamisheva are both tiny and Mao Asada is not much bigger either... And that 11-yead old Canadian boy doing quads now does not look like a powerhouse. Boyang Jin is basically a stick figure and yet the 4Lz and everything else is there. Does it depend upon girls not being encouraged to take on more technical difficulty?

(puzzled) e

IMO, the triple axle is not rewarded proportionately/disproportionately for the ladies as the quad is for the men. The real push for the quad among the majority of skaters came post 2014. There was no huge outcry in 2014 that Yuna outscored Mao with her triple lutz triple vs. Mao's triple axle. The disciplines diverged in that respect. Meanwhile, the women have by and large had to skate much cleaner programs in order to win. We have a great deal more consistency and far fewer trainwreck competitions on the ladies side. So we should be careful what we wish for.
 

eppen

Medalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Country
Spain
Thanks for the explanations and views!

The BV of 3A and 2A are 8,5 and 3,3 and the difference is actually quite a lot - more than 5 points! - these days when most of the top ladies have very similar technical content and very similar total BVs for their programs. 4S and 4T have base values of 10.3 and 10.5 with just 2 points difference compared to 3A. So, considering that the scoring does not feel like a sufficient explanation to me. Especially since most top ladies have the 3+3 combinations with lutzes, flips, etc. There were those 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 etc. combination practice vids all through the summer, so it'll be interesting to see what the senior ladies bring to the table in the GPs.

I guess it's mostly still more about a difference in attitudes and expectations? Guys are expected to be techically advanced and girls pretty princesses ;) Liza T. trains with Mishin and her training partners are apparently mostly men and Mishin has been pretty good at training jumpers... (But L seems to have dropped the 3A at least from the SP.) I wonder would it be beneficial for the ladies to mix with guys a bit more?

Next weekend we will see whether Rika Kihira will be able to get her 3A(s) out in competition... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIBggCEidzc) I don't expect most of the current top ladies to even consider adding 3As or quads into their repertoires, but looking forward to seeing the next generation!

e
 

gsyzf

Medalist
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Thanks for the explanations and views!

The BV of 3A and 2A are 8,5 and 3,3 and the difference is actually quite a lot - more than 5 points! - these days when most of the top ladies have very similar technical content and very similar total BVs for their programs. 4S and 4T have base values of 10.3 and 10.5 with just 2 points difference compared to 3A. So, considering that the scoring does not feel like a sufficient explanation to me. Especially since most top ladies have the 3+3 combinations with lutzes, flips, etc. There were those 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 etc. combination practice vids all through the summer, so it'll be interesting to see what the senior ladies bring to the table in the GPs.

Quads in men's programs replace the 2A. The BV of 4t and 2A are 10.3 and 3.3. The difference is 7 points. Quads are extremely risky for men. If a skater messes up the quad, he doesn't just lose points on quads, but it can mess up the rest of the program. So the reward needs to compensate not just the risk of quad itself, but also the negative impact of quads on the rest of the program. 3A has similar effect on ladies. Once a lady messes up on 3A, it can mess up the rest of her program too.

If the reward sufficiently outweighs the risk, skaters will go for risky elements. Otherwise, skaters don't attempt it. Before 2010, the BV of 4t and 2A were 9.8 and 3.5, and 4t has always had higher BV than 3A. But due to deduction on UR being too harsh, it even discouraged men from attempting quads because a flawed performance with 4t scored lower than a clean performance with 3A . For ladies, 3A (similar risk as quad to men) has lower BV than 3-3s (similar risk as 3A to men). The reward is not proportional to risk because the lower risk jump gets more reward than the higher risk jump. That definitely would not encourage girls to try 3A if they want to win.

After 2010, due to the rule change and the judging, in men's skating, a flawed program with quads can outscore a clean program with only 3A. So men were forced to try quads because doing only 3A means they can't even get close to the podium. But in ladies, a flawed program with 3A can't outscore a clean program with 3-3s. Mao and Liza can't outscore girls who only do 3-3s unless they are absolutely perfect and consistent. The odds of them being absolutely perfect and consistent is 0. So girls are in fact discouraged to try 3A because they all saw that girls who try 3A lost to girls who didn't try 3A and only did 3-3s. Unless judges let a girl's flawed performance with 3A regularly outscore a clean performance with only 3-3s, 3A won't become a norm in ladies' skating. The judging and rule changes are influenced by the public's expectation. But unless the skater is a public figure or has celebrity status, he/she will respond directly to the rules/judging much more than the public's expectation.
 
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CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
There are two Japanese juniors that are making their debut this season. Both of them has attempted a 3A in their LP at local competitions. One of them has been doing 3A-3T in practice.

Wow! What are their names? Could you/someone please post a link to the thread or the videos, if you can find them? :)
 

angelicadiablo

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 27, 2004
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