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was reading quietly your post and then, at the last word, i got incredibly hungry
2016 Nebelhorn Ladies FS
- Thread starter Alex D
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Yes, she's assigned to Skate America.
It is a major step up from last season actually.
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Don't mind at all when it is done in a friendly manner like you have. Sure, I frequently do the same to sabinfire!
(Don't know why - he's bigger and older than me!)
Wait, what?? "bigger and older"?
I guess I'll take that as a compliment. 
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lol i thought you were a girl 
Wait, what?? "bigger and older"?
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- Oct 22, 2015
It's actually very depressing - like Elena
Huge step for Elizaveta here: she needs to build that confidence in these events, here i enjoyed more her programs. The SP is quite nice, the long is interesting but i prefer Miki Ando as Cleopatra.
Serafima -> i'm still thinking she was a far superior skater under Eteri's coaching: maybe she was training more, but everything was more polished, not just the jumps. Also after so many years she is struggling a lot with the 2a, and those rippon variation must go (bring back the tano instead)
Serafima -> i'm still thinking she was a far superior skater under Eteri's coaching: maybe she was training more, but everything was more polished, not just the jumps. Also after so many years she is struggling a lot with the 2a, and those rippon variation must go (bring back the tano instead)
I'm just going to come out and say it: I don't think Rukavicin is a good coach. His students have basically imploded at all competitions the past 2 seasons.
His only student that I really like is Fedichkina, but I don't see her beating any of Eteri's students.
Why on earth did Serafima actually move from Eteri?!
His only student that I really like is Fedichkina, but I don't see her beating any of Eteri's students.
Why on earth did Serafima actually move from Eteri?!
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- Feb 24, 2012
I am in a bit of a quandry here. First, we want good judging but it is true that is in the eye of the beholder - if your fave doesn't win or get the scores you think they deserve it is a scandal, unfair - an outrage. Tut is not my fave skater but it is still a bit sad how the judges it appears have dumped her. I a not saying it is deserved or undeserved but they could have had her first her - pcs - yes some may say she deserved to be behind Daleman but it does seem to be in the eye of the beholder. When you aren't on the national team it does seem to affect your reputation or score. I mean Gold and Wagner despite inconsistent skates seem to get good pcs - surely there fans will say deserved but I do wonder if Liza were the Best or top Russian what the scores would have been like. She was relatively clean. I mean her skates have not been as bad as Asada and Kostner in the past and they got held up - but then again that backs the theory or argument mentioned before - if you are on the national team that helps the marks. Asada and Kostner have always been on their national team - one wonders though - there certainly is good argument to dump Mao - Satoko is clearly ahead right now and there is good argument for other ladies too.
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^^ some people could argue she was held up here in PCS.... aside some cliché arm movements, her choreography is rather empty and her performance of it very labour. The music doesn't help at all.... I am happy her jumps are coming back. She is an exciting athlete. However, the refinement is nowhere to be seen in her program. It may come later in the season, and I will be happy for her then, if she gets higher marks. However, I think she got what she deserved here, and even perhaps it was a generous offering from some judges.
Seems to me your only quandry is which unproven conspiracy theory to choose, that suits your purposes.
1. Check video of performance in question.
2. Evaluate PCS according to the documented PCS criteria (all 40+ of them, not just a few cherry picked ones).
3. Compare your evaluation with scores in the competition protocols.
4. Repeat for several skaters at the same competition for comparison.
Hard work, but it's the only way to make a real case for incorrect or inconsistent scoring, if indeed there was any.
If your case is strong enough... then you might start looking for conspiracy theories to explain any discrepencies...
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I can agree with you about the reputation being a significant factor, but my conclusion would be quite different from yours: I believe Liza was judged fairly here, she received average PCS (for a top-level skater's standard I mean) that reflected the average way in which she skated and the average quality of her programs at this point of the season. On the contrary, what I did find unfair and unjustified was the way in which her PCS was constantly being held up last year because of her reputation as European and World champion, namely the 31 and 64 she received at Skate Canada for two below-mediocre programs, which were not even close to the quality of her programs and performances of the previous season.
And no, it is not purely "in the eye of the beholder", otherwise why bother with judging and scores and competitions? Just have a great show in which everyone applaudes their favourites
I do agree with your advocating detailed analyses and explanations, but we have to remember that judges elaborate their marks in just a few seconds (not more than 2 minutes after the program has ended), so they base them largely on their "impressions", too. They have been trained to do this, of course, but they are human beings and I frankly doubt that they consider all the 40+pages of criteria one by one during those few second
40-ish criteria, not pages! :-DI do agree with your advocating detailed analyses and explanations, but we have to remember that judges elaborate their marks in just a few seconds (not more than 2 minutes after the program has ended), so they base them largely on their "impressions", too. They have been trained to do this, of course, but they are human beings and I frankly doubt that they consider all the 40+pages of criteria one by one during those few second
And I think judges are able evaluate PCS pretty well in the time given, that's the job they are trained to do. And are they not mostly ex-skaters? Who ought to be much better at spotting and appreciating the strengths and weaknesses on display, than "ordinary" people?
Judges who can't do that... have no business being judges. ISU has words with judges (behind closed doors) if their scoring doesn't add up. But if an incompetent or biased judge still managed to keep their job, how would we spot them? Under anonymous judging it was pretty much impossible - but without anonymity, if we do the hard work as above... yup, as untrained non-judges we still have to do that hard work... then we have a solid basis on which to call them out...
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Fair judging maybe (but as Skater Boy said before other skaters shouldn't receive high PCS as well), generous offering absolutely not: Liza is the 2015 World Champion, with an inflated score she would have won this easily.
Plus i like her style and the choreo is not that bad, i can see tons of improvements from last season, now she can improve her PB at Finlandia Trophy.
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- Sep 10, 2012
Well, I have been both an athlete and a judge (in roller skating, as I have written many times) and I can tell you that, even if judges know the rules and everything, their scoring is still largely based on impressions, simply because even trained eyes wouldn't have the time to consider different and specific aspects for each mark: in roller skating we don't have the ISU judging system but a "10.0 system", in which just two marks are awarded, and even in this way there is no time to evaluate and consider everything well, so just imagine what happens when you have five marks to come up with, added to the technical aspect.
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But did you have to spend years rising through the ranks, and taking all the practical and written exams on the way, like an international ISU judge?
What does "impressions" mean in this context? Does it describe what a judge perceives, as a result of their training and experience, such that they are able to evaluate each PCS component over the course of a performance... according to its 8 or so criteria... pretty much instinctively, and without having to stop and think hard about it?
If so, that about sounds quite possible to me. I can imagine judges picking out the various aspects of performance as it goes on, and building up an overall "impression" from those - but such impressions would still be based on education, knowing the rules/criteria, experience, having to take tests, etc etc.
...And I also think that's vastly different to the kind of "impressions" that "ordinary" people (or the average forum posters!)... use to "evaluate" scoring...! Those are (usually, and in my opinion
) far more random, incomplete and uninformed... and far less objective and impartial...
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