MK and the 3flip | Golden Skate

MK and the 3flip

Matt

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
OK, while my laptop is currently being repaired, I've been re-stocking my figure skating video collection on the home computer. One of the videos I managed to find from www.cruelladekwan.com (a great site, if you haven't been there yet) was MK's LP from the '98 Olys, which I remember from watching it on TV was flawless. Watching it again, I noticed she had a deep knee landing on the 3flip, which is prolly what kept her from winning gold against an otherwise flawless Tara Lipinski

This immediately got me thinking about MK's LP from the '02 Olys, where all she basically had to do was skate cleanly to win the gold, but she ended up falling. The jump she fell on? Again, a 3flip

So, what is it w/ the 3flip for MK? It seems like, no matter how relaxed she seems to be, the 3flip is her stumbling block in the Olys. It seems like just a psychological thing, b/c most of the time, the 3flip is one of her better jumps (look at her LP at the 2004 Nats).

So what is one to make of this?
 

Lucy25

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
From what I remember, Michelle had trouble with the 3flip all season leading up to SLC. There was talk on the boards that had she had a coach, this could have been fixed.
 

Ogre Mage

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Matt said:
OK, while my laptop is currently being repaired, I've been re-stocking my figure skating video collection on the home computer. One of the videos I managed to find from www.cruelladekwan.com (a great site, if you haven't been there yet) was MK's LP from the '98 Olys, which I remember from watching it on TV was flawless. Watching it again, I noticed she had a deep knee landing on the 3flip, which is prolly what kept her from winning gold against an otherwise flawless Tara Lipinski
Actually what mainly kept Michelle from beating Tara in '98 was a lack of a 3/3. She had to take her 3toe/3toe out of her program because of her foot injury. With it, she would have beat Tara hands down. Actually I thought Michelle should have won in '98, even without the 3/3. Her skating was far superior to Lipinski's. She lost fair and square in '02, though.
 
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Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Although Michelle's 3flip in her 98 Oly LP was not picture perfect, it was a clean, landed jump. Iin 2002 it was another story. The lack of 3-3 certainly hurt her in 98 against Tara's 3loop-3loop combo. However, Tara's jump technique and artistry were no match for Michelle. IMO the reason MK lost was the skating order.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
There was no problem in last season's Nats or in Dortmund. The flip went well and that could be for Arutunian.
I prefer her lutz. When she doesn't do it correctly (once in awhile) she goes from the outside edge to the flat, which is better than going from an outside edge to an inside edge which imo, is a flip. It may be why her 'flutz' is from the flat and not from the problem flip edge like other skaters' flutzes especially the Americans.

Joe
 

thisthingcalledlove

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Normally, her problem jump is the loop, and not the flip. I guess you're right- it's her stumbling block in the Oly's.

During dance auditions, I always have trouble doing double pirouettes on my left foot...but during rehearsals, they're always there.

hmmm
 

ladybug

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
In 02 her problems seem to come with the flip. In 03, she was spot on with all her jumps. In 04 she seemed concerned with the loop but it was the lutz she doubled or fell on.

I hope in 05 and 06 she has a repeat of 03. All jumps nailed secure and steady.

Ladybug
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Yeah, Michelle's problem jump has always been the triple loop. She has consistently struggled with this jump for many, many years now. I'm glad she has chosen to put it as the first triple....I think that has proven to be a good strategy for her over the years. As for the flip, as Thisthingcalledlove pointed out...I think she just happened to make mistakes on the triple flip in her Olympic appearances. Generally, the triple flip is a strong jump for Michelle and I also think it is one of her best.
 

floskate

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
I do believe that a lack of a coach didn't help her with the flip in '02. She was clearly having a timing problem and placement of the toepick which she survived in the sp - barely but became her undoing in the long. However I think her jumps have improved imeasurably since joining Aruturian. The inconsistency on the lutz is a correction of her sometimes flutz I think which I'm sure will be sorted by next season. I still worry about her loop though. It always looks precarious to me :(
 

euterpe

Medalist
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Funny, but Irina had a problem on her 3F in the SLC FS too! And at '03 Worlds, Sarah Hughes fell on the 3F in HER FS.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
This discussion brings to mind the theory that the Protopopovs have about skaters and jumps. They believe that each skater feels comfortabe with either the toe pick jumps or edge jumps, and that the other kind can be learned, but will never come natural. Could be thay Michelle is just a natural toe pick jumper.
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ptichka........so very true. I've never seen her miss (double maybe) but not miss the Sal, which is also an edge jump, so maybe it's just the loop itself and not edge jumps in particular that are a problem for her............? 42
 

Lucy25

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
I agree that Michelle's toughest jump is the loop. However, in the big events (Nationals & Worlds), she has almost always landed it when it really counted. (sometimes tightly, but clean). It seems as though she tends to double it in the smaller events.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Pitchka and Show 42 - Historically edge jumps came first. The waltz jump; the loop jump and the salchow. I don't know much about the introdcution to the toe off jumps. I would think it was accidental. Someone probably accidentally did a toe off on a slachow and voila, the flip. Similarly, the loop became the toe loop; the luz of course came before the toeless lutz. (The axel came from an aditional air turn of the waltz jump._

The toe off jumps imo, are easier than the edge jumps. Edge jumps require a perfect edge with a deep pliet and power from the hip (loop) or groin (salchow). Toe off jumps assist the skater to get higher jumps, and imo opinion give the sport a more exciting look. Just my take from my own practices.

When you think about jumps, they all look the same in the air. It's not like diving.

Joe
 

floskate

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
Michelle is defiantely a toe jumper. The sal comes quite easy to her though but the axel has had some dodgy moments since she matured. It used to be a great jump for her but post '97 it has caused some problems. The triple loop requires amazing spring in the right thigh to pull it off. There is no assist from the take off so if you don't have that natural ability then you are always going to struggle with it.

IMO MK doesn't have this and therefore has to get her timing absolutely perfect to pull the jump off. There is no margin for error on this but if you look at her record from 11 World Championship LP's, you'll find 12 triple loops landed - 2 for '98.

Funnily enough, because of her injury in '97/98 her triple loop really improved. If you watch her Skate Canada '97 one it is gorgeous with good height and flawless landing.

Ignore everything I just typed skategods!! ;)
 
S

SkateFan4Life

Guest
Vash01 said:
Although Michelle's 3flip in her 98 Oly LP was not picture perfect, it was a clean, landed jump. Iin 2002 it was another story. The lack of 3-3 certainly hurt her in 98 against Tara's 3loop-3loop combo. However, Tara's jump technique and artistry were no match for Michelle. IMO the reason MK lost was the skating order.

I watched my videotapes from the 1998 and 2002 Olympics. Michelle's triple flip from Nagano was landed a bit roughly, but otherwise, she skated a clean long program. She looked a little tight and tentative, but she landed all of her triples, and her choreography was beautiful. Tara Lipinski was no match to Michelle, artistically, but she (Tara) landed a great triple loop/triple loop combination, and she finished her program with another triple combination. She won on the basis of higher technical content.

HOWEVER, I agree with Vash01 that had Michelle skated after Tara at Nagano, the result might have been different. The judges might still have awarded Michelle 5.8s instead of those 5.7s for technical, and, perhaps she would have received a solid string of 5.9s for presentation. Lipinski had greatly improved her artistry, but she was an ingenue, compared to Kwan.

Salt Lake was another story. Michelle fell on her triple flip, and that pretty much sealed her fate. Had she landed a triple toe/triple toe, perhaps she would have managed to finish second in the long program, ahead of Slutskaya, and that would have won Michelle the gold medal. On the other hand, Michelle skated before Slutskaya, so the judges were probably saving marks to award to Irina.
Remember that three of the judges gave Slutskaya 5.9s for technical? How in blazes did that happen? Irina landed her triple flip way forward, she made several other mistakes, and she did not land a triple/triple. Biased judging!
 

floskate

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 18, 2003
If they skated as they did but Michelle skated after Tara by about 3 to 4 slots, I think Michelle would have got a slew of 6.0's for presentation. ITA about the skate order thing.

I'm not even going there over 2002 - way too painful still :cry:
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
This is why one must look at an athlete's "body of work" and not an individual skating event, even though it is the Olympics. If placement in skating and biased juding can determine the gold medal, what does it say? Michelle and Irina are wonderful skaters with resumes to die for........that should be enough......42
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
show 42 said:
This is why one must look at an athlete's "body of work" and not an individual skating event, even though it is the Olympics. If placement in skating and biased juding can determine the gold medal, what does it say? Michelle and Irina are wonderful skaters with resumes to die for........that should be enough......42

Definitely agree with you, Show. And the Hall of Fame doesn't do it. There should be a special award for the 'body of work' which should not be easily awarded as is entry into the Hall of Fame.

It could be named after the first pioneer in figure skating. I think it was a Brit. Submission of candidates could be made with full explanation of the reasons this skater has an excellent body of work. The Panel of Judges should consist of l each from N.America, S.America, Australia, China, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Africa and should change every five years. the award could be announced publicly on the final day of a Worlds. It will not be necessary for the judges to award a skater every year.

Lots of work needed for the above :( . In the meantime, we can name our own skaters to the "Sonia Henie Award" for distinguished skating over a period of not less than 10 years. :)

Joe
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
show 42 said:
This is why one must look at an athlete's "body of work" and not an individual skating event, even though it is the Olympics. If placement in skating and biased juding can determine the gold medal, what does it say? Michelle and Irina are wonderful skaters with resumes to die for........that should be enough......42

I would say that if Michelle had skated in Nagano the way she can do, she would have won, what ever the skating order may be. I very much doubt that there was biased judging for Tara..., another US skater. In my opinion athlete´s "body of work" is mostly brought forward if a skater who has great possibilities (is really expected) to win in the Olympics and doesn´t. Maybe the third time will be the right one for Michelle?

Marjaana
 
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