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In his defense, BoP isn't the one who compared Evgenia to Trump.
And my takeaway from his post is that his comments are directed towards the scoring and the judges, not Evgenia.
2016 Trophée de France Ladies SP
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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In his defense, BoP isn't the one who compared Evgenia to Trump.
And my takeaway from his post is that his comments are directed towards the scoring and the judges, not Evgenia.
Following up on my post after the SP, I'd like to make a couple of points...
First, I am so incredibly thankful that none of the competitors was seriously injured in the FS under those ice conditions. And I hope that there are no minor injuries that have yet to be reported.
Second, I think we should give kudos to all the ladies for going for it, and acknowledge that the three who made the podium were most able to either skate through or adjust their program for the conditions....That's worth a pause and a moment of respect in my view.
But I remain frustrated that sincere critiques of Evgenia Medvedeva's results....which are really critiques of the Etreri coaching approach and the judging that rewards it....keep leading to the kind of unhelpful back and forths below.
Thing is I'm a parent of skaters. When I say that I don't want our kids to skate like that, I'm absolutely sincere. And I find that the technical critiques of skaters and the approaches of coaching teams, including critiques of the Eteri school among others, is helping us as parents to know which coaches to go to and who to avoid. So, I don't want that shut down, it's one of the most valuable things to me.
And please remember with the movement of coaches from Russian into North America and back, North American coaches have absorbed Russian technique... Many of the coaches here represent various Russian schools of coaching thought...whether Etreri, Mishin, Moscow U...we see them all, and they morph and merge...
Lastly, prediction of my kids' reaction to Evgenia's skate was much right on....Our youngest, who once "went for a swim" in warm up after a badly done flood, was keen to see how the skaters coped yesterday. Russian skaters are favourites with with our kids, with the exception of a couple of Canadians, so Evgenia got close attention.
A favourable impression with her keeping her feet as the water sprayed up off her blades, pretty quickly shifted to "what is she doing?" And an enumeration of all the poor tech habits that youngest's coaches have corrected but that Evgenia still has at her level, including a couple that I hadn't previously noted. Accompanied by an immediate demo of the incorrect position on the floor and the wry remark that the coach had used to describe it...
Now compare that to kids positively trying to copy Plushenko's jumps, or Chan's body flow....which is what I've seen in the past when they've watched competitions whether live or broadcast.
So I don't think that just getting the ordinal ranking correct is okay....
And I ask all those who think we are being mean to keep mentioning the issues, or that we don't accept progress in skating, please consider that there seems to be a major divergence in thought about what is good skating. And her skating represents something that many are sincerely concerned about.
First, I am so incredibly thankful that none of the competitors was seriously injured in the FS under those ice conditions. And I hope that there are no minor injuries that have yet to be reported.
Second, I think we should give kudos to all the ladies for going for it, and acknowledge that the three who made the podium were most able to either skate through or adjust their program for the conditions....That's worth a pause and a moment of respect in my view.
But I remain frustrated that sincere critiques of Evgenia Medvedeva's results....which are really critiques of the Etreri coaching approach and the judging that rewards it....keep leading to the kind of unhelpful back and forths below.
Thing is I'm a parent of skaters. When I say that I don't want our kids to skate like that, I'm absolutely sincere. And I find that the technical critiques of skaters and the approaches of coaching teams, including critiques of the Eteri school among others, is helping us as parents to know which coaches to go to and who to avoid. So, I don't want that shut down, it's one of the most valuable things to me.
And please remember with the movement of coaches from Russian into North America and back, North American coaches have absorbed Russian technique... Many of the coaches here represent various Russian schools of coaching thought...whether Etreri, Mishin, Moscow U...we see them all, and they morph and merge...
Lastly, prediction of my kids' reaction to Evgenia's skate was much right on....Our youngest, who once "went for a swim" in warm up after a badly done flood, was keen to see how the skaters coped yesterday. Russian skaters are favourites with with our kids, with the exception of a couple of Canadians, so Evgenia got close attention.
A favourable impression with her keeping her feet as the water sprayed up off her blades, pretty quickly shifted to "what is she doing?" And an enumeration of all the poor tech habits that youngest's coaches have corrected but that Evgenia still has at her level, including a couple that I hadn't previously noted. Accompanied by an immediate demo of the incorrect position on the floor and the wry remark that the coach had used to describe it...
Now compare that to kids positively trying to copy Plushenko's jumps, or Chan's body flow....which is what I've seen in the past when they've watched competitions whether live or broadcast.
So I don't think that just getting the ordinal ranking correct is okay....
And I ask all those who think we are being mean to keep mentioning the issues, or that we don't accept progress in skating, please consider that there seems to be a major divergence in thought about what is good skating. And her skating represents something that many are sincerely concerned about.
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There is nothing wrong with criticising the skaters for their performance and judges scoring. However, not all "criticism" posts are actually helpful comments, some are just made to insult the skater. There is line between the two, just don't cross it and pretend, you're just criticising the judges!.
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Would you please share? My coach does not follow figure skating (I roller skate) so I rely on the forum to learn more.
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I have been reading up on and thinking about the two-as-one theme of Jesus' teaching, particularly as quoted by Thomas and your words here seem to fit very well as hate and love being one and no different. The hate for the state of the sport and the judges/judging is also the love for them as you extract enjoyment from acrid criticism. One way or another, one derives pleasure and gratification from the sport, just in very different ways.
Hesitating here as some folks really seem to take observations on these kinds of things as having a hidden agenda, or personal attacks on the skaters...
Here's some of the technical issues in Eteri skaters in general, and Evgenia in particular, that have been previously been raised by others and by me...
Jumps: Excessive pre-rotation [there is a limit allowed]; rotation off the pick on jumps that use the toe pick; murky arcs, edges or skids at take off; use of a fisted and thrusting free arm [right in her case] to get the rotation through the upper body rather than jumping with the legs; not much elevation or distance [although she has more than some other skaters in the Eteri group]....my youngest also noted arms and hands remaining above the head at landing rather than in a nice T..
Spins: while some are centred others travel excessively across the ice, and some that are centred in the upper body cut a surprisingly large circle with the blade [stays in a box, but scribe quite a large circle, with the skating foot noticeably moving quite alot and the leg quite a bit off vertical]
Overall, the concern is that, while her coaching team has been effective in boosting up the base value of what she does with hard elements, and features like difficult transitions and arm positions that get higher grades of execution, there is not sufficient attention to some of the basics of good technique and execution that many of us would like to point to and have young skaters emulate in a world champion.
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As long as the issue is there, people will complain (and have the right too). And why 'focus on the placements'? If we look at a single competition separately from the rest, okay, but overall? Definitely not.
How skaters are scored relative to each other is a very important point. Imagine your a young ladies skater coming up the ranks, having basically the same BV as Evgenia - as quite a few ladies do (because besides what people will preach over and over and over, despite Evgenias backloading, her programs are not 'much harder' than those of other ladies, like Anna P., thanks to her for example not having a clean lutz and repeating easier jumps). But even if your elements are of similar or maybe even better quality, same for your skating and performance, you don't have her reputation, a strong fed backing you or whatever, and you just don't get the same points. And maybe so far you only lost directly to her when she was clean and you had a fall, but is that 'comfortable knowledge' when there was a 20 point gap (arguably due to overscoring of Evgenia)? I'd doubt it. And this, not just in Evgenias case but with a lot of 'favorite skaters' in all disciplines, has got to influence skaters mentally. I'm pretty sure there have been skaters feeling demotivated by this. Some might have felt they need to push for harder technical content then they'd want to usually (and again, if scored fairly, wouldn't have needed), and maybe it let to inconsistency and made them lose more often, or worse, it could have led to injury. Or skaters being at a loss and going for whacky coaching changes, maybe to get the politicking, maybe to 'start over', who knows. Thing is, if the judges clearly crown some skaters over others and mark them way above them, even if not justified, I'm sure it messes with skaters heads. So it is an issue, it is perfectly fair to address it, and if it happens over and over, then it's fair to address it over and over. The placement is the more important point, but with this judging system, the scores relative to each other do matter.
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I don't "enjoy" needing to provide such harsh criticism, I simply feel obligated to correct broken systems. That is my nature. It perturbs me to see this and nobody wants to be perturbed, so they go about trying to find a solution. What I do enjoy is creating/improving systems, expressions, and concepts. Also seeing others create beauty, truth, and emotion in whatever form they choose to in life. This is ultimately what skating should be doing, but it has been dumped to the sideline.
The sport uses a mathematical system of judging, yet the numbers defy reason and objectivity. So it's like watching an abusive relationship and that is very unsatisfying. I need to protect these poor, misused numbers so they can have the lives they deserve!
Ah, but that doesn't solve the problem at all. When everyone is working under a bad system the placements become rather meaningless, because everyone is operating within a state of existence that is a lie. The scores are also what create the placements, so while Evgenia has never had an unfair win up to this point in time, that is simply called "being in a bubble". Last season she won Europeans with a fall in each program, ahead of Radionova who skated totally clean. Given the state that Radionova's skating was in, it can be said that Medvedeva's placement was fair, although not everyone felt it was the correct outcome. At the very least it must be considered that their scores were too close.
So, if Medvedeva continues to be overscored, a time may come when she falls and wins a competition when she doesn't deserve to. Or wins because of underrotating a jump and not being called on it. Or having lower quality jumps than another competitor but gets equal or higher GOE anyway. Or having weaker skating skills and artistry than another competitor, but gets more PCS anyway.
And since the system itself is indeed flawed, this will be a recurring problem. It won't stop with Medvedeva, it's not really about her, she is just the biggest example of it right now. We've been complaining for over a decade now about how the sport is being killed.
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I just wanted to comment on this part of your post, regarding Zhenya's acting. Of course, it's subjective... but as far as I am concerned, her acting is very literal miming... like.. oh... the phone rings... i am ganna pick up.... or oh... childhood memories, i will skip row... To me, that's not acting. It's a very youthful way of telling the audience what a piece is about... assuming we cannot get it... well.. trust me, I have lived long enough to know what to do when a phone rings, even if it has a 1970s ringtone... no need to portray that...
I do not wish to extend commentary about her skating or her scoring... others have done that from both sides. I personally think she's a cool kid, managing to be so steady competition after competition. I also find her very beautiful. But what for you seems like an asset, her acting, is what KILLS me about her presentation and programs.... if only, at least, it was kept throughout the performance but it only happens a bit at the beginning and the end... for me it's gimmicks... me no likey gimmicks...
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I, for one, do not give a damn about figure skating records in scores as they are not objective... personally, the only valid records in figure skating are who is the first who has done what.... those types or record cannot be disputed... scores??? well... they are variable from event to event... AND on top of that, ISU will have to make them beatable ... and they will be...adding elements, adding BV etc.... increasing the way PCS are scored... ISU will do this, because you guys fancy those discussions about world records well ... they don't affect me at all 
nice try ISU hahahahaa
well ... they don't affect me at all nice try ISU hahahahaa
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topic:You know what the problem is? People don't even know what races are, but use the Word "racism" everytime when they don't like something. THIS is bullying. I see it on twitter all the time. It's the reason for all the hate. How does YOUR hate make you better? Races are not even defined, so stop with this nonsense and accusations, it doesn't make this world a better place.
The competition is over anyway, let's save energy for next week
Actually the bv of a 3Ltz-3T is 10.30 while the bv of a 3F-3T in the 2nd half is 10.56.
Backloading your three jumping elements is almost as difficult as adding a 3A in the short program (from a psychological point of view, is definitely more difficult), in fact for the third season in a row outside Eteri's students, no one is trying that layout.
I, for one, do not give a damn about figure skating records in scores as they are not objective... personally, the only valid records in figure skating are who is the first who has done what.... those types or record cannot be disputed... scores??? well... they are variable from event to event... AND on top of that, ISU will have to make them beatable ... and they will be...adding elements, adding BV etc.... increasing the way PCS are scored... ISU will do this, because you guys fancy those discussions about world records
The fact that you disagree with those scores doesn't mean they are not objective.
Personally i understand Evgenia's scores more than Kaetlyn's annual home inflation at Skate Canada, but at the end you'll have to accept that there's so much more behind those scores: the home advantage, the ranking position, the consistency, the reputation...
Skaters and coaches knows what judges are looking for so it's totally up to them to show how good they are.
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you just contradicted yourself... if you say scores ore objective, how can you talk about home advantage, ranking position, reputation...
the only thing that seems objective is the tech panel... and yet, still people say : how come that wasn't called for the wrong edge ... how come that wasn't UR????
When I look at the pole vault, if the stick falls, the jump is not good... if it stays up, then it's good... that's objective... i come from a swimming background. Time was the ruler.. not the home advantage or the reputation.
And finally, you will see how Hanyu's record will get beaten very soon.... ISU will think... okay.. we need to stimulate interest again with the word "record"... let's fix PCS.... TES is too high and PCS is capped.... let's factor it by 1.2 so it matches TES... then... scores will rise for everyone and the best skater in the pack will beat that record....
The opposite could also be true... what about the plan to remove one jumping pass after 2018.... that could create a huge gap for anyone trying to pursue older records... The fact that the scoring rules are constantly changing should tell a lot already.... Just the increase of the 3T is a big deal... how can any lady not repeat both the Lz and the flip in the LP and still manage to break the WR???? simply because the value of the Flip was downgraded, is almost equivalent as the loop, and the toe has been raised.... Just that small modification makes records very "subjective".
Anyways, I invite you to disagree with me, I think I have explained my reasoning with enough detail.
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OMG.
Hahaha... where's the OTT Smilie?!This is some ridiculousness that Evgenia is facing in this thread. I guess the more you bring it, the more people will try to bring you down.
As far as beating Yu Na's SP record, I thought it was earned. That program was well-delivered. Yu Na/Mao are not supposed to be some untouchable paradigm. I still liked her SP more than Evgenia's, but I thought Evgenia's spins were stronger, she had harder jumps (I mean, while she does no lutz, the entry/exit of that 3L is harder than any performed - men or women IMO) and a layout, and more transitions throughout the program than Kim. The level of sophistication and finesse was obviously much better with a seasoned skater like Kim, but Medvedeva committed herself to the music and choreography and was flawless.
You can nitpick on the rotation (which most agree, at least in this program, were fully ratified), but the reality is, that was an excellent short program. Not everyone has to have Kim/Kostner/Asada level artistry to be worthy of a record. Much like how you gripe about judges getting a mindset of a skater like Kanako underrotating her jumps and thus being prone to doling out UR calls, I believe your mindset now is that Medvedeva is incapable of fully rotated combos and now anything she puts out there in your mind will be treated with far greater skepticism than, say, a skater who wasn't at the top of the game.
The issue for many isn't that Medvedeva got 78.52 points. It's that she actually beat Yu Na. I mean, seriously, lets' just placate them and say 3T wasn't worth as much in Yu Na's day, and the PCS wasn't scored as high (Yu Na probably would have gotten 80 under today's level of scoring).
The FS was very overscored though, and I can understand the outrage there.
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My skepticism is the same for anyone. Her jump technique is no better than the army of Junior skaters who do the same thing, but she gets these huge scores simply because she is the most consistent Senior skater in the world. You say "that was an excellent short program" but I disagree. The program itself is CRAP. There is no real meaning to hardly anything she does. There's just some lame jump-rope hopping thrown into the step sequence and then 3 jumping passes and 2 spins all back-to-back-to-back, exactly the same as her program last year. How can this be good interpretation? Well, it isn't, is the answer.
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Fixed.
It might not mean anything to you, but it means something to other people. And certainly means something to the judges, whose opinions matter the most at the end of the day.
I'm not, cause i'm not saying that the scores are objective: they are trying to make this scores objective, or at least more objective than it was under the 6.0 era, where scores were totally subjective.
But how can a score be fully objective, especially when we are talking about the artistry? the choreography, the interpretation? even the GOEs are debatable, but I think this scoring system is absolutely fine because Figure Skating is an artistic sport and that "artistic" side always makes it more subjective.
The ranking exists, and it shows as the ISU says "the actual competitiveness of the skater", the reputation and the home advantages aren't written rules, but this is something we've always seen in figure skating. Personally I don't like the home advantage but it exists, what can you do? while the reputation makes totally sense to me:
For instance it's not written anywhere but this season judges gave to Mao the feedback that without the 3A and a 3-3 combo, she won't stay relevant anymore. I think reputation helps to fill some gaps of the scoring system, where maybe the bvs of some of those 3-3 combos aren't that high as it probably should be, so they are trying to fill this gap with the GOEs.
I don't think your idea on how they should judge the jumps is good, because it doesn't help the sport to move forward: if that is the case then why care about the height on a jump? why care about the underrotations or the correct edge? That is why the current system is so important. But i do agree about the weirdness of the world record that doesn't actually makes sense when you change the rules every year.
The all World record melodrama started when judges gave insane scores to Yuna Kim out of nowhere basically, and die-hard korean fans divinize her as the god of this sport.
I'm not saying that she wasn't a great skater but:
1. The rule that the 3A wasn't allowed as a solo jump was basically made to let her win the Olympics because this was Mao's clear advantage over Yuna: the fact the she can land a 3-3 and the 3A.
2. the bv of her programs weren't that high, she always did the 2 major jumping elements of the short program right at the beginning, and only 6 triples in the free skate most of the times. This was totally acceptable at that time, but now with just 6 triples you can't win Worlds or the Olympics, this is no longer enough. So amazing athlete at that time, surely a legend of this sport like many others but please stop saying that the actual skaters aren't better than her or not legitimated to beat her records because this is simply not true: different rules, different trainings / type of skaters,...
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ermmm so if we agree that the scores are not 100% objective, then how can we live comfortably with the idea of world records... A record is something objective, easily measurable... not something qualitative.
and i didn't talk about bv nor judging jumps in figure skating... the only mention i made of a jump was the pole vault to show that it's an objective factor here that decides a result, hence the possibility to have world records.
let's compare this to competition in the artistic field.... music competitions for instance... points and ranks are awarded but it is subjective, even if there are many objective items to evaluate, like accuracy, speed, dynamic range of sound... there will always be subjective elements like quality of interpretation, style, tone quality, and so many others....
so in the end, big competitions present winners. (or sometimes not!) but these winners, as important as their prize is, as well-known they will become, are not "world record holders"... unless they go for "the fastest playing of the flight of the bumble bee" haha
I think it's a bit ridiculous honestly to have world records in figure skating... and on top of that, the regular changes in elements assignment just proves my point right...
how can we compare ice dance to previous scores this year, with an added element...?
when ISU removes one jumping pass in the FP. if the biggest FP scores belong to Medvedeva (or anyone else), it could stay there forever... that world record would definitely have an *** beside it... "this record can no longer be beaten due to a change in the rules... PS... we know the rules may change again so perhaps this record won't mean a thing in 2 years from now
I repeat... I am not talking about ANY skater in particular... BUT i am talking about what makes sense to me to qualify as a world record... and figure skating doesn't in my humble opinion.
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