My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes | Page 3 | Golden Skate

My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

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Pather2000

Guest
Re: WHY MICHELLE KWAN IS THE BEST

<em>I just think that this is just another Sasha vs Michelle & Sarah thread. But whatever, here is my $1.00's worth. It would have been better to say something about maybe Presentation/ artistic side. Bring up jumps for Sasha vs Michelle or sarah. is a No brainer. Well, at least on michells point for this season. I will give it & say the TRUTH that sarah did get away with alot of cheating on her jumps.

Michelles Lands her jumps much more that Sasha does. Her edging is better Michelles entire Body position is better. Sasha's Spiral my have more extension. But not drama effect yet. they are still the Look at what I can do skating.

But, Taking about sasha's Jumps compared to michells is a no brainer. Michalle wins

</em>
 
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elingrace4eva

Guest
Re: WHY MICHELLE KWAN IS THE BEST

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You may not like a skater but dont make up things to "back it up"....[/quote]

I don't know whether or not this was meant as a slam...but I didn't make anything up...in fact, I didn't use judging facts at all yet, I was just stating my opinion. If it wasn't mean as a slam...then never mind :)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>How fast you rotate in the air is not an element that is generally judged.[/quote]

Actually...it is...I've read the judging rule books. However, my real opnion on the whole thing is that if you can get high enough to do a really lofty double axel (like Sarah Hughes'), pull in tighter and make it a triple axel. Really wow 'em.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Nothing Sasha does is of that level yet, not even her spirals.[/quote]

Sasha's spirals have been called "textbook", "perfect", and "the best in the world", how can you say they aren't worthy of being in instructional videos?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>How do you land a jump with excitement?[/quote]

When you land with as much speed as you take off with, your landing is exciting. At least, that's my definition of it. Michelle Kwan's landings tend to be slower...IN MY OPINION. Of course she lands them right, and always on the correct edge, and that's why she's the world champion.

And for everyone who said it...Tara Lipinski KILLED Michelle in technical merit, otherwise, she wouldn't have beat her... You can insult her presentation all you want (and I'll probably be right there with you, backing you up!), but you can't put down her jumps. They were incredible.

With no made up facts,
Kat
 
S

Show 42

Guest
Re: WHY MICHELLE KWAN IS THE BEST

.....As to double axels, I think Irina's are the best.....anyway, Midori's were great, but she had that darned "leg-wrap" that took a bit away from the beauty of the jump.....

.....As for Tara having "incredible" jumps.....sorry, I don't see it. Her loop-loop was fast, but low to the ice, more of a roller skating move (former roller skater here).......her jumps were nice, but I wouldn't call them incredible........42
 
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mathman444

Guest
Re: My Problem

Discussions like this make me more sympathetic to the judges. When we see judges' marks ranging from 4.9 to 5.7 it seems like a travesty. How can there be such a difference of opinion? One judge thinks skater A has the most spectacular and wonderful jumps in the world. Another equally knowlegable judge says, no, they stink.

Just like us.

Mathman
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Jump comparison

"<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">When you land with as much speed as you take off with, your landing is exciting. At least, that's my definition of it. Michelle Kwan's landings tend to be slower...IN MY OPINION. Of course she lands them right, and always on the correct edge, and that's why she's the world champion.</blockquote>

If you refer the 'EXCITING' of the jump landing as the out speed of the landing, then you should compare Michelle's jump to someone else, not Sasha nor Irina, they intend to land them at dead stop. The only 'EXCITING' of landing jumps by Sasha is SashaSplat. Sorry you picked the wrong examples.
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: WHY MICHELLE KWAN IS THE BEST

actually, sasha has the most technically correct double axel of all the ladies... sure some landings of hers can be wobbly, but when she hits the double axel it is the most technically correct of all ladies - it enters with a flawless forward outside edge... no scratch.. no pre-rotation on the ice.. that is VERY difficult to do... for another example, take a look at the Scott Hamilton double axel.... perfect.
I think sarah's backwards jumping style is somewhat distracting... I agree with whoever stated that first. Also she has very long limbs and she is taller than most of the sprites out there, so it adds to the sometimes awkward look... most people aren't used to seeing a regular sized person skate the bigger elements.
michelle has wonderfully secure landings with a lot of flow (when she holds them)... the height isn't the best... which explains why she gets distance - she has to to get the rotations in...
irina's triple/triples do in fact slow down... but that's because she has two triples in a row.... you can't compare a 3/3 with a single 3 jump as far as flow is concerned ... that's silly.
there is nothing wrong with a lofty double axel like sarah's.. she has a big enough jump to where she doesn't have to pull in tight... perhaps the problem is her air position while she is slowly rotating? I don't know... maybe she should throw in a huge delayed axel for some excitement into her programs..?
and midori ito is definitely the most naturally talented jumper ladies skating has ever seen. the leg wrap was a little unattractive, but the height, distance, speed in/speed out, no. of rotations in her jumps was amazing and incredible....
no one comes close...
 
R

realistic51

Guest
Well, I just had to...

I don't consider Sasha's spiral textbook. The spiral is based on the arabesque balletic move. A perfect arabesque is with the leg raised higher than the hip creating a perfect 90 degree angle. While Peggy and Dick may gush over the "amplitude" (which they call extension) of Sasha's spiral, I find it unappealing. Looks more like a split on one leg. But that's just me. And her edges on her spiral aren't that deep. She has less ice coverage as well.

As far as jumps go, I think Sasha and Michelle both have the same height (at least it seems to me) on their jumps, however Michelle has more secure edges coming out of hers than Sasha does. I did enjoy watching Sasha finally land her 3/3 in competition. I like those low, compact jumps because I think they are harder than springing into the air like a kangaroo and rotating.

But, I have always liked Irina's jumps the most. And Sarah's huge 2axel is amazing.

Oh well, here's my quarter's worth of nonsense.
 
T

thvudragon

Guest
Re: Well, I just had to...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>irina's triple/triples do in fact slow down... but that's because she has two triples in a row.... you can't compare a 3/3 with a single 3 jump as far as flow is concerned ... that's silly.[/quote]

Uhhh, ever seen MK's 3toe/3toe? She has a great smooth, outflowing edge that keeps up the speed. Just look at MK's 3/3 from 1999 SA. Same speed going in and out on both jumps. Even look at Kristi Y. Her 3lutz/3toe had these same great qualities. Even look at Miki Ando's 3lutz/3loop. Same speed going in and out.

TV
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: Well, I just had to...

it's actually physically impossible to land a 3/3 with as much speed as one can land a single 3 jump...... it's physics...
 
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Mathman3

Guest
Re: Well, I just had to...

And yet some skaters can create the illusion that they are doing just that, and it's pretty amazing when they do.

Like a basketball player's "hang time." We know from physics that Michelle Jordan (or Mikhail Baryshnikov) can't <em>really</em> hang in the air. And yet...

Mathman
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: Well, I just had to...

actually it is a noticeable difference.... but it makes sense that there should be a difference...
but comparing apples to oranges isn't a fair comparison...
 
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Mathman3

Guest
Re: Well, I just had to...

What about Michelle's triple-toe, triple-toe in the Red Violin at 2000 Worlds? Or am I just remembering that performance through rose-colored glasses?

MM
 
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engrsktr

Guest
Re: Well, I just had to...

perhaps you are..... no one's 3/3 flows out as fast as it is skated into..... if it is, that means a skater is almost standing still to begin with..... I don't care who the skater is....
 
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Yankees Suck 01

Guest
Re: Well, I just had to...

I'm sorry. I know I am a self admitted Kwan fan but if the only thing you can find to hate Michelle about in her skating is the way she lands a jumps then IMO you are nit picking and searching for an excuse.
 
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Verbalgirl77

Guest
Re: Well, I just had to...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Even look at Kristi Y. Her 3lutz/3toe had these same great qualities. [/quote]

That's probably my all-time fave jump combo. She nailed it, and hit it right on the music in her free skate. VERY effective move.

I remember when A&E's Biography did their bio of ladies skating (I think it was a year or two ago) and Kristi actually compared the jumping abilities of Midori Ito and Tonya Harding, and eventually conceeded that Tonya had the better jumps. I think Midori's leg-wrap might have influenced her choice a little bit. While Midori was a more consistent jumper through the years, Tonya's individual jumps were just gorgeous. High, powerful, and pretty. *sigh*...what could have been.

While Michelle might not technically land her 3-3 combos as fast as she enters them (no one does really) that isn't to say her flow out of the jumps isn't the best in this biz. It is. That 3-3 combo at 2000 Worlds was gorgeous, like a walk in the park. Same as Nancy's gorgeous 3-3 was at the 1994 Olys.
 
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nthuz

Guest
Re: WHY MICHELLE KWAN IS THE BEST

elingrace wrote about the speed of the revs in a jump being judged, "Actually...it is...I've read the judging rule books."

Who here can tell the difference between .18 sec, .25 sec, or .21 sec?

Respectively, these are the average times taken to make one revolution for: Female double axel, female triple toe, and male triple toe.

I don't care who you are...there is no way for a human to be able to discern the difference between .18 sec and .21 sec, let alone a judge watching SH do a 2axel with a different speed and height as another competitor 10 minutes later with a different set of circumstances.

Elingrace, can you tell me the names of the "judging rule books" you read this info in? There is no reference to the 'speed of revolutions in a jump' in the USFSA rulebook.
 
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SHINE2002

Guest
Re: Well, I just had to...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>perhaps you are..... no one's 3/3 flows out as fast as it is skated into..... if it is, that means a skater is almost standing still to begin with..... I don't care who the skater is....[/quote]
Yet what exactly is your point? People are just argueing that Michelle has the best flow out on her jumps and you're telling us no one can flow out of a 3/3 as fast as they skate into it. Don't the two things seem kind of irrelevant to you?
 
F

freshandclean

Guest
re

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I don't like watching skaters when I'm afraid she might fall, even after the jump is landed.[/quote]

When was the last time Michelle Kwan fell <strong>after</strong> landing a jump?

And I can't see how you can stand to watch Sasha jump. If anyone would fall <strong>after</strong> landing a jump, she's your girl. Actually, that's one of my predictions for next season. She'll land a clean 3/3 and fall 1 second later
:rolleyes:
 
J

Joesitz

Guest
Re: WHY MICHELLE KWAN IS THE BEST

nThuz - I can't believe a speedy air turn is considered better than a slow revolving air turn. The speedy air turns look like blips on a screen.

Just using one's imagination and seeing a graceful jump take off; the body aloft and turning slowly; then a graceful landing with gorgeous outflow. The skater that can do that is the artistic jumper. Check out Dorothy Hamill's axel.. Gorgeous!!

Joe
 
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nthuz

Guest
Re: WHY MICHELLE KWAN IS THE BEST

Joe, before I got to the end of your post, I was thinking about Dorthy's delayed single axel.
 
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