Focus underotation skater lost spontaneity

coolboogie22 · Dec 7, 2016

The main problem in the spontaneity of the skaters, is maybe that a lot of them are focusing on underotation problem and that's make skater fear of the judging system because rotate jump, seem in the new system the most important thing to focus.

We reward much a rotate jump in a skater who skate like a robot with no emotion or connection to the music.

Instead of creating skater with spontaneity and personality.

I think it's bad that the skater cannot focus on spontaneity or personnality in their program cause of a system who reward much the element instead of the creativity and personnality of a skater in their program.

Is it a solution about this problem ?

blue_ice · Dec 7, 2016

Figure skating is a sport, not art (like ballet).

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 7, 2016

I found this old TV footage of skating from the 60's I think it sort of looks robotic

.

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 7, 2016

coolboogie22 said:
We reward much a rotate jump in a skater who skate like a robot with no emotion or connection to the music.

I don't think this is completely true. Comparing a more introverted skater like Anna to a more extroverted one like Evgenia, the judges seem to prefer the expressiveness of Evgenia more and give her better PCS even though Anna is arguably a better skater. As far a jump rotation, as blue_ice said it is a sport and the jumps are probably the most difficult elements to do, so if they aren't executed well it is very problematic.

narcissa · Dec 7, 2016

If you can't land triples, you shouldn't be getting credit for them. Any of the top skaters can have more artistry if they're just landing doubles.

cherryncy · Dec 7, 2016

1. I don't see a problem rewarding jumps more than spontaneity and personality. Arguably, it is the only element that made figure skating a sport. If a skater cannot complete the rotation, isn't a punishment deserved? Otherwise, we can just enjoy ice dancing rather than figure skating.

2. IMO, I found that a greatly executed jump can be an art too. Not all jumps are robotic, some of them so light and smooth that they greatly enhance the excitement and overall performance from the perspective of an audience.

3. While personality and spontaneity are nice, these are very subjective and may vary from person to person. I believe that it is desirable that a (largely) objective factor should play a slightly more important role in judging.

4. And we see that in the men's field, although one may tilt towards either the artistry or technical side, all the top tier skaters need BOTH sides to excel.

SnowWhite · Dec 7, 2016

I agree that under-rotations must be penalized and that jumps are important for the reasons others have mentioned.

One thing said to me on the subject of artistry vs technical aspects by a males singles skater who had competed internationally was that in the past, the maximum PC points was approximately equal to the max TES points, so they were more equally valued, where today the max TES has increased, especially for the men, while the PC max hasn't. He thought that increasing the max PCs would be a good thing because would lead to more equal weighting of the two aspects while still rewarding technical proficiency.

An interesting take I thought.

noidont · Dec 7, 2016

I think UR is punished just right. However, falls are not. Rotated quad falls have become a habit with the men. Fall fast, fall gracefully has become a part of personality and spontaneity on ice. Also hooked landings are automatically being scrutinized but pre-rotation and Pogo lutzs are not addressed at all. It seems selective.

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 7, 2016

SnowWhite said:
One thing said to me on the subject of artistry vs technical aspects by a males singles skater who had competed internationally was that in the past, the maximum PC points was approximately equal to the max TES points, so they were more equally valued, where today the max TES has increased, especially for the men, while the PC max hasn't. He thought that increasing the max PCs would be a good thing because would lead to more equal weighting of the two aspects while still rewarding technical proficiency.

It's still pretty close. Nathan's base value in his NHK LP with four quads was around 100, and the PCS ceiling is 100. A male skater who averages one point higher across the five PCS categories get a benefit approximately equal to the base value of a 3Lo in the SP and a 4T in the LP, so the skaters are already incentivized to work on those components IMO.

glacial87 · Dec 7, 2016

blue_ice said:
Figure skating is a sport, not art (like ballet).

It's per se a juged sport. Ballet is juged as well but differently - audience, responsibles at the theater; although this judgment can be very different. Usually a ballerina not getting her technique together ends up in the corps; messing up fouttées, for example in Swan Lake, or hops en pointe in Giselle is not exactly a good idea ... and is rewarded with lukewarm applause at the end of a whole scene AT BEST. There are exceptions like Kristina Shapran, who is technically very weak when it comes to pointwork, but is given a lot of important roles because of her expressivness and her look. It's much more comfortable to attend a performance of dancers who own their technique completely and can use them effectively for expression. No technique = limited performance = not impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Gy92w9kHU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqhzYf2-K9w

First one: mission accomplished. Second one: stumbled around, marred performance.

gkelly · Dec 7, 2016

Making it look easy, making it look spontaneous, is valued as a reflection of mastery of technique.

Achieving that sense of spontaneity by making the technical demands easier to achieve works against the push for technical content.

There are all sorts of technical demands that require skaters' concentration and get in the way of "spontaneity" -- not only rotating the jumps, but keeping the takeoffs clean or keeping the spins centered and achieving enough revolutions, and executing clean and difficult turns in the step sequence, etc.

All these things mattered under 6.0 scoring as well, but the overall demands of whole programs has increased under IJS.

Any skaters who can make the performance look spontaneous and a breeze for them to execute will be rewarded in relevant PCS and sometimes GOEs. But if in the process they rely on subpar technique, they'll be penalized for the technical weaknesses. Whether or not they win depends on whether their positives outweigh the negatives, and also on what the rest of the competitors are doing.

Performances where skaters can relax their technical vigilance and just perform are more likely to be found in shows/exhibitions/galas, where they don't have to include as much technical content and don't need to worry about what judges think.

Sam L · Dec 7, 2016

blue_ice said:
Figure skating is a sport, not art (like ballet).

Ballet on ice?

mrrice · Dec 7, 2016

blue_ice said:
Figure skating is a sport, not art (like ballet).

Figure Skating is one of the "Sports Of The Arts" Similar to Rhythmic Gymnastics and Synchronized Swimming. When you blend to the two successfully, it's a thing of beauty.

lyndichee · Dec 7, 2016

I think COP judging is just going through a possibly necessary phase of adjustment. These technical issues need to be addressed at some point in history to ensure that future generations double down and learn proper technique as young skaters. Right now it is underrotations and edge problems, maybe in a few more years it will be prerotation problems. This period will likely be more painful for figure skating fans but it seems it could be a good thing for the future of the sport.

I am just not liking the precedent it has set so far. It has encouraged a lot of jumping beans like the Russian female strength though very few of them have longevity/are complete skaters. I think once ISU scrutinizes prerotation too, it can create a lot of skaters who jump and skate like Carolina Kostner.

karne · Dec 7, 2016

So then all these "spontaneous" skaters should learn proper technique.

coolboogie22 · Dec 7, 2016

narcissa said:
If you can't land triples, you shouldn't be getting credit for them. Any of the top skaters can have more artistry if they're just landing doubles.

It's true like example Mao Asada at Trophée de France : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy1H696ExLU

I enjoy her skating even if this is mostly double jump routine, I like this program.

She has great spontaneity and personnality in her skating.

karne · Dec 7, 2016

coolboogie22 said:
It's true like example Mao Asada at Trophée de France : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy1H696ExLU

I enjoy her skating even if this is mostly double jump routine, I like this program.

She has great spontaneity and personnality in her skating.

Again, MUCH easier to have spontaneity and personality when you're not doing triples.

GF2445 · Dec 7, 2016

I think a skater who under rotates a jump should still be able to get positive GOE.

NanaPat · Dec 7, 2016

Personality and performance is a good thing in figure skating, but I'm not so sure about spontaneity.

I thought the aim of the skaters was to skate "just like I do in practice". Usually when they start changing the program it's because they missed something. For example, if they didn't do the second half of a combination, and decide to turn a later single jump into a combo to regain the points lost, or they downgrade a jump and have to change a later jump to avoid Zayaking. This may lead to "spontaneity", as in a program "made up on the fly", but it doesn't usually enhance the performance, as they may become tentative or "absent" though thinking about what change is required.

karne · Dec 7, 2016

GF2445 said:
I think a skater who under rotates a jump should still be able to get positive GOE.

Absolutely NOT! It is a flawed jump and should be punished, not rewarded.

Focus underotation skater lost spontaneity

coolboogie22

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