2016-17 GPF Ladies FS | Page 37 | Golden Skate

2016-17 GPF Ladies FS

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
And what excatly Satoko does to receive 3's on her jumps when she's barely off the ice? Ridiculous.
There are 8 bullet points for earning GoE on jumps:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable (difficult for jump preceded by steps/movements of the Short Program)
steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

The recommendation (!) is 2 bullet points ticked for +1, 4 bullet points for +2, and 6 bullet points for +3, but remember that's only a recommendation. If a judge thinks a skater has ticked 5 bullet points, perhaps they will be generous and go +3, or not so generous and +2. One can only hope each judge will be consistent with their scoring.

Satoko isn't going to tick the "good height and distance" bullet point for her jumps (although! I note she does get good distance on some jumps, just not the height). But she will target all the other bullet points.

Similarly, I wouldn't expect Medvedeva to tick the "effortless throughout" bullet point on jumps, because she does indeed "muscle" them somewhat. But she will tick a lot of the other boxes...

Really, if you don't know how GoE (or PCS) is calculated, or how skaters tick those bullet points in the eyes of the judges... then you're not in a position to complain about scoring. Same goes for PCS scoring.

PS. under-rotations etc are decided by the technical panel, not the judges...
 
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cathlen

Team Gorgeous Cacti!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 2, 2015
Country
Poland
There are 8 bullet points for earning GoE on jumps:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable (difficult for jump preceded by steps/movements of the Short Program)
steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

The recommendation (!) is 2 bullet points ticked for +1, 4 bullet points for +2, and 6 bullet points for +3, but remember that's only a recommendation. If a judge thinks a skater has ticked 5 bullet points, perhaps they will be generous and go +3, or not so generous and +2. One can only hope each judge will be consistent with their scoring.

Satoko isn't going to tick the "good height and distance" bullet point for her jumps (although! I note she does get good distance on some jumps, just not the height). But she will target all the other bullet points.

Similarly, I wouldn't expect Medvedeva to tick the "effortless throughout" bullet point on jumps, because she does indeed "muscle" them somewhat. But she will tick a lot of the other boxes...

Really, if you don't know how GoE (or PCS) is calculated, or how skaters tick those bullet points in the eyes of the judges... then you're not in a position to complain about scoring. Same goes for PCS scoring.

PS. under-rotations etc are decided by the technical panel, not the judges...

I know Satoko is ticking some of bullets for GOE, I just don't see her doing enough for +3. She certainly does enough for plus GOE (like steps and good flow), but to me not as high as she gets. I know URs are decided by Tech Panels, but I was wondering, if you get UR judges need to lower GOE? Or am I mixing it with something else?
 

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
I know Satoko is ticking some of bullets for GOE, I just don't see her doing enough for +3. She certainly does enough for plus GOE (like steps and good flow), but to me not as high as she gets.
The thing is, what do the judges look for? I know from hearing occasional commentaries by technical specialists and judges, that they often see things that untrained fans do not, or simply look at things differently...!

Over the years, I have looked at many skaters' jumps and the corresponding protocol PDFs in an effort to understand the various amounts of GoE they earn. I am still no expert and not a trained judge, but I think I'm getting a "rough" idea now, of how GoE's are assigned. Occasionally, I might think judges were a little generous, or a bit mean... but bearing in mind it is a judged sport - not "unreasonable" or "unjustifiable". These days it's quite rare that I think GoE scoring is seriously out of line.

I know URs are decided by Tech Panels, but I was wondering, if you get UR judges need to lower GOE? Or am I mixing it with something else?
Yes, if the technical panel calls an error, there will be GoE penalties - often a variable amount, so eg. the judges might have to decide whether to deduct -2 or only -1 from GoE.

All the info is in this ISU document:
http://static.isu.org/media/1003/2000-sptc-sov-and-goe-2016-2017_revised-july-14.pdf
 
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cathlen

Team Gorgeous Cacti!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 2, 2015
Country
Poland
The thing is, what do the judges look for? I know from hearing occasional commentaries by technical specialists and judges, that they often see things that untrained fans do not, or simply look at things differently...!

Over the years, I have looked at many skaters' jumps and the corresponding protocol PDFs in an effort to understand the various amounts of GoE they earn. I am still no expert and not a trained judge, but I think I'm getting a "rough" idea now, of how GoE's are assigned. Occasionally, I might think judges were a little generous, or a bit mean... but bearing in mind it is a judged sport - not "unreasonable" or "unjustifiable". These days it's quite rare that I think GoE scoring is seriously out of line.


Yes, if the technical panel calls an error, there will be GoE penalties - often a variable amount, so eg. the judges might have to decide whether to deduct -2 or only -1 from GoE.

All the info is in this ISU document:
http://static.isu.org/media/1003/2000-sptc-sov-and-goe-2016-2017_revised-july-14.pdf

Thanks for direct link.

Poor speed, height, distance, air position -1 to -2

Does it mean -1 or -2 for any of the aspects or need to be all of them? If any then Satoko should never have +3.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I know Satoko is ticking some of bullets for GOE, I just don't see her doing enough for +3. She certainly does enough for plus GOE (like steps and good flow), but to me not as high as she gets. I know URs are decided by Tech Panels, but I was wondering, if you get UR judges need to lower GOE? Or am I mixing it with something else?

There is nothing in the rules that says GOE needs to be lowered for UR jumps although I think a good judge will see the error and deduct something. There is no required negative GOE for UR or edge calls anymore. Similarly the guideline YesWay provided for awarding GOE based on the amount of bullets hit is simply a suggestion by the the ISU and final GOE increase is at the judge's discretion. Judges can hedge their scores and put added weight on particular bullets and that may change from skater to skater based on individual strengths and weaknesses. Some judges may award for height more than on a jumps musicality. I would. In essence.. You have every right to say that bullets 4, 6, and 7 are so poorly executed by her that even if 5 and 8 for example are hit you still think a jump is worth -1 or even -2 GOE. It's really not hard to make a legitimate claim that her jumps even when clean are worth around 0 to +1 GOE and be well within the realm of the ISU guidelines.
 
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YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
There is nothing in the rules that says GOE needs to be lowered for UR jumps
Um, actually there is...

If you look at the PDF I linked, page 14 lists the GoE reductions for various errors.
Downgraded (sign << ) gets GoE reduction of -2 to -3
Under-rotated (sign < ) gets GoE reduction of -1 to -2

There is no required negative GOE for UR or edge calls anymore.
Yes - although there is a GoE deduction, a negative total GoE is not mandatory...
 

cathlen

Team Gorgeous Cacti!
Record Breaker
Joined
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Country
Poland
There is nothing in the rules that says GOE needs to be lowered for UR jumps although I think a good judge will see the error and deduct something. There is no required negative GOE for UR or edge calls anymore. Similarly the guideline YesWay provided for awarding GOE based on the amount of bullets hit is simply a suggestion by the the ISU and final GOE increase is at the judge's discretion. Judges can hedge their scores and put added weight on particular bullets and that may change from skater to skater based on individual strengths and weaknesses. Some judges may award for height more than on a jumps musicality. I would. In essence.. You have every right to say that bullets 4, 6, and 7 are so poorly executed that even if 5 and 8 for example are hit you still think a jump is worth -1 or even -2 GOE. It's really not hard to make a legitimate claim that her jumps even when clean are worth around 0 to +1 GOE and be well within the realm of the ISU guidelines.

There is however on 14th page of doucment YesWay linked:
Under-rotated (sign < ) -1 to -2
Lacking rotation (no sign) including half loop in a combo -1
Which means skater can get lowered GOE even if Tech Panel does not give UR sign. But I think Satoko never does, if there is no UR sign.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
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Country
United-States
Um, actually there is...

If you look at the PDF I linked, page 14 lists the GoE reductions for various errors.
Downgraded (sign << ) gets GoE reduction of -2 to -3
Under-rotated (sign < ) gets GoE reduction of -1 to -2


Yes - although there is a GoE deduction, a negative total GoE is not mandatory...

I thought it wasn't mandatory and don't like that it is. I think the judges should make their own minds up and the TP should only assess the BV. Just my take though. Thanks for the correction :)

I rarely disagree with you but suggesting people shouldn't comment without understanding every aspect of GOE and PCS is a bit harsh. As long as they keep their minds open and are able to discuss things level headed it's the best way to learn and understand a very subjective and legally manipulated scoring system.
 

YesWay

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I rarely disagree with you but suggesting people shouldn't comment without understanding every aspect of GOE and PCS is a bit harsh. As long as they keep their minds open and are able to discuss things level headed it's the best way to learn and understand a very subjective and legally manipulated scoring system.
Point taken, normally I only say stuff like that when I think people are making harsh comments of their own regarding scoring/judges/skaters... without any proper justification... or perhaps cherry-picking just one or two aspect of GoE or PCS when in fact all aspects need to be considered.

And in this case, I confess my post here was influenced by posts made elsewhere, in other threads.

I'm not against people commenting or giving their opinions - but if people claim that scoring was actually wrong, or skaters were "robbed" etc etc... then it is my opinion that they ought to justify their claims by reference to protocols, rules, video footage etc. Because that's the only way to properly show if judges didn't follow the rules, or were biased.
 
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cathlen

Team Gorgeous Cacti!
Record Breaker
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Country
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Point taken, normally I only say stuff like that when I think people are making harsh comments of their own regarding scoring/judges/skaters... without any proper justification... or perhaps cherry-picking just one or two aspect of GoE or PCS when in fact all aspects need to be considered.

And in this case, I confess my post here was influenced by posts made elsewhere, in other threads.

I'm not against people commenting or giving their opinions - but if people claim that scoring was actually wrong, or skaters were "robbed" etc etc... then it is my opinion that they ought to justify their claims by reference to protocols, rules, video footage etc. Because that's the only way to properly show if judges didn't follow the rules, or were biased.

I'm open for discussion too :) But document you linked make me actually even more convinced Satoko is sometimes overscored on jumps GOE, if we take into consideration the guidelines both you and me quoted. I have nothing against Satoko personally, I love her two directional spins :) I just dislike what judges are doing...
 

gotoschool

Medalist
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
I thought it wasn't mandatory and don't like that it is. I think the judges should make their own minds up and the TP should only assess the BV. Just my take though. Thanks for the correction :)

I rarely disagree with you but suggesting people shouldn't comment without understanding every aspect of GOE and PCS is a bit harsh. As long as they keep their minds open and are able to discuss things level headed it's the best way to learn and understand a very subjective and legally manipulated scoring system.

It has been discussed in great detail by you, me and others but again the fact is that skaters receive ur calls with 2 1/4 air rotations and even more with negative GOE, while others have jumps counted as ratified with as little as 2 air rotations or slightly more with high GOE due to the big preference given to pre-rotation of over 180-270 degrees or more. This is unjust in my opinion and will always make me extremely critical of the way jumps are evaluated because it contradicts what my eyes see and it contradicts my mathematical understanding of what a ur, lack of rotation, is. If just one call is reversed for two skaters competing against each other in a competition, the difference in score could be as large as 6-7 points on a triple jump or more if the jump is a triple axel. This does not even take into account the compound effect due to the fact that PCS scores are attached more and more to tech scores. In my opinion, this combination of factors greatly facilitates the means by which scores could be manipulated, though I guess this is different than your reference to legal manipulation.

As I have written before, I have seen protocols in which a skater received +1 from the judges on a ur and speculated that this may be do to the fact that the judge's disagreed with the tech crews ur calls, or then again the judge may have just thought it was a beautiful jump that met a lot of criteria for positive GOE
 
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elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Can I just say, irregardless of FS, I hope you and all your friends and family are safe and that things improve for everyone in the new year?

I'm not a big fan of VO and sound effects in Med. program. I'm anti VOs and would like them banned. I think the VOs cheapen the message. Med can convey what the movie the music is from easily without the bells and whistles. It's a program about a young man going through the chaos and horror of a terrorist attack and then finding out that his own parent died. That is, sadly, kind of a universal plot line. It could happen anywhere and the emotions can be portrayed without all the unnecessary drama of George Bush and ambulances and screaming. So that's my stance. Fine with the program itself, not fine with the VO and sound effects. And I like evgenia. It's nice to see someone put their heart out there and she is remarkable in her consistency.

Thank you. We are all OK. This year is not good for my country: attacks, military coup attempt. We are hoping for good year but it is not going to be easy.;)

I know I remember not liking screams and talks of Ilinykh/Katsalapov Ghost program. Probably Averbukh put in for easier interpretation. He probably thought we will not understand program without voices.;) But I can't imagine Medvedeva's program without voices and effects. Medvedeva's boy -maybe because he is in the area- probably helping people or simply being in chaos until phone call. What I did in 2 days ago (also in coup attempt) is listening ambulance sirens from my window and watching what president said on TV. There is not very much you can do unfortunely. I'm trying to imagine program without it but came up with nothing. For me they very huge part of the reality. I don't like idea of hiding them away.

What I told people was: "you know, one young girl is doing a program this year that is supposed to be a tribute to 9/11 or handle terrorist attacks as a topic. However, there is a part where they use voice overs from actual news about 9/11, sirens and you can even hear people scream - as in actual people being there - if you listen close enough. What do you think of that?". I'd think that was pretty neutral? I'd also say all the people who reacted here and didn't like it weren't actually influenced by what/how I said stuff.

Still fishing certain part of sitiation. Very subjective for me.
 

Vladimir

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
There are 8 bullet points for earning GoE on jumps:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable (difficult for jump preceded by steps/movements of the Short Program)
steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

The recommendation (!) is 2 bullet points ticked for +1, 4 bullet points for +2, and 6 bullet points for +3, but remember that's only a recommendation. If a judge thinks a skater has ticked 5 bullet points, perhaps they will be generous and go +3, or not so generous and +2. One can only hope each judge will be consistent with their scoring.

Satoko isn't going to tick the "good height and distance" bullet point for her jumps (although! I note she does get good distance on some jumps, just not the height). But she will target all the other bullet points.

Similarly, I wouldn't expect Medvedeva to tick the "effortless throughout" bullet point on jumps, because she does indeed "muscle" them somewhat. But she will tick a lot of the other boxes...

Really, if you don't know how GoE (or PCS) is calculated, or how skaters tick those bullet points in the eyes of the judges... then you're not in a position to complain about scoring. Same goes for PCS scoring.

PS. under-rotations etc are decided by the technical panel, not the judges...

Ha, Evgenia has most of GOE points in her jumps. TAT: ''It's impossible to make a jump better then Evgenia does. She has enough height, enough length, she has a hand over her head, she has difficult entry/exit. So, we are sure that she will get +3 for her jumps". By the way: TAT is a CSKA coach, not a fan of Evgenia at all, but she has to admit, that Medvedeva is almost perfect. Just let the other ladies to do tano variation in their jumps and smile. Most of them will fall. It's hard thing to do and "everyone of the judjes knows that", - Scott Hamilton.

She makes her programs harder and harder in details from start to start. More hard steps before the jumps, more difficult entries, etc.
Just from the beginning of the season: improved her 2a entry in both programs, 3lz entry, 2a-2t-2t entry, last 2a entry, 3lo exit, 3lo entry in sp, 3f exit. Everyone of the judges can see it, she get's +GOE's for that.

Everyone who understands figure-skating reality, fs rules, knows that Evgenia is the best, she is in another league. Besides jumps, she has great spins with almost excellent flexibillity, she has a right-ballet choreography, Pogorilaya and especially Radionova are not even close.

Due to ISU her recommendations both of her programs has clear story, and she has a clear character in it. So she gets higher points for interpretation and composition, and she performs better and better as an actor from start to start.

Every respected champion or commentator in FS says that she is the best - from spanish tdp to NBC and etc.
 
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iamchrislao

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Urgh...I.don't.like.....evgenia's skating at all.

Anyway my placements would've been:

1.Pogo
2.Med
3.Osmond
 
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