Am I too late to become professional?

shiroKJ · Jan 5, 2017

posha said:
So if you see a woman competing at the Olympics aged 32-36, "Heeeeeeeeyyyyy!!!!"

When I think "professional skater" I think one of two options:

1. Makes a significant enough income to make a living solely off of being a skater (pays the bills)

2. Representative of a National team. Eligible to earn the minimum for large comps like Senior B, Grand Prix, Europeans, Four Continents, Worlds, and possibly Olympics. (Exclude Adult worlds or internationals)

Option 1 does not equal option 2, or vice versa.

Most of these questions wondering, "Am I too late.." seem to be gravitate toward option 2. Is it too late to be a pro competitor? I don't think anyone has achieved this feat starting as a teen or adult skater. (Please prove me wrong if you can think of an example, bc I would love to learn!)

To play devil's advocate:
--- Could you--a late starter-- become a pro competitor--- participating in big comps like Euros, Jr. or Sr. Grand prix, 4C, Worlds, Olympics??? Hmmm.

What if you come from a small federation... in which... you are the highest level skater to represent your country? Like, the only Senior skater, or Senior team? Haven't we all seen girls at Jr. Grand Prix or B internationals, etc. who basically throw doubles, with under rotated 2 axel and cheated triples? Or what about an ice dance team who justqualifies for Oly or Worlds, not qualifying for the free skate? If you can make the minimum qualifications to be sent out on some internationals, with no medal hope or income (you could have sponsors though) from skating, would you be considered a "pro" in the competitive sense?

"I marched and competed in the Olympics, the first from my country. Finished last place, but I was there."
"I am a six-time National champion." (but there were no other competitors so you got the title by default. Still, a title is a title).

Depending where you are located and the level of competition in your region, could you go "pro" as a late starter?

Its not impossible but there at least two conditions which must be met.

1) You would have to meet the country's criteria for competing for such country on the international stage. And for the Olympics, you must be a citizen of said country.
2) There is a TES minimum for international Championships (Sr/Jr Worlds, 4CC, Euros, Olympics) which most skaters cannot met (even if they started skating before they could even talk). And the GP's are by world standings and invites only.

karne · Jan 5, 2017

shiroKJ said:
2) There is a TES minimum for international Championships (Sr/Jr Worlds, 4CC, Euros, Olympics) which most skaters cannot met (even if they started skating before they could even talk). And the GP's are by world standings and invites only.

I was going to say this

NanaPat · Jan 5, 2017

shiroKJ said:
Its not impossible but there at least two conditions which must be met.

1) You would have to meet the country's criteria for competing for such country on the international stage. And for the Olympics, you must be a citizen of said country.
2) There is a TES minimum for international Championships (Sr/Jr Worlds, 4CC, Euros, Olympics) which most skaters cannot met (even if they started skating before they could even talk). And the GP's are by world standings and invites only.

Even Kevin Reynolds, who is a very experienced and skilled skater, couldn't meet the TES for worlds last year. He had a very short season after coming back from two seasons of disaster/injury. He came third at Canadian nationals (against a lot of skaters), and I believe Skate Canada wanted to send him to worlds, but he couldn't get his form back fast enough to get the TES.

Alex D · Jan 6, 2017

fullmetalflamingo said:
But on another topic, man am I bummed with all the pessimism on this board... would it hurt people to be encouraging instead of being rude and point blank shutting down people's dreams? I'm pretty sure nobody here is an expert on adult sport and physiology, or if they are, they could sure stand to learn some tact. Offering words of caution and advise is one thing. Telling someone they'll never be able to do it no matter what the circumstances are is something entirely different. For all we know, the original poster could have a great innate ability that comes forth once they start learning.

The forum has definitely been taken over by pessimists lately, not only in threads like this, but also at competition threads. It is a trend, however, that people in our society, often look left and right if they judge something and if the general attitude supports a "not doable, too late...." then they will just copy that phrase. Humans have stopped having an own opinion, if you ask me

and we see that all day if we turn on TV, where everything is as the standards demand, nothing is out of the ordinary anymore.

As for teenagers coming here, seeking for help and then being trashed by users,

well, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that most of these replies come from people who just lack the experience of working with teenagers. Those kids, have dreams, lots of them and it is in the thing of nature, that they ask for recognition and feedback all the time, as in reality, being a kid is when you often question your body, intelligence or abilities in general. But it´s also the only time in life, when you can be really free in your thoughts, as all that crap which happened to us adults, all the mistakes and wrong paths, have not been taken yet and therefore a nice word of encouragement can do wonders and light the fire in their eyes.

Therefore, it is advisable to keep that natural flair for as long as possible and even if you might think that the young lady or boy has a bit of too much optimism, don´t crush it and try to help them as good as you can.

In the end, who would have thought that a black could become president, that a women could rule Germany or that 80 years old run Marathons. These things happen, just like there is that one Swizz skater, Jérômie Repond who skipped three classes in school and passed her final exams with 16 and is now a student with 17, plus a bronze medalist at nationals and international competitor.

99% will never be able to skip years in school, 99,9% will never become a skater on international level and yet, there are those who do or even combine the impossible. Just because it isn't or wasn´t possible for you, does not mean that it can´t be done, by someone else.

sandraskates · Jan 6, 2017

Talk about pessimism - look at he synthetic ice discussion. For those that have skated on it they don't say how many months / years ago it was and it's clear that advances have been made in the offerings.

posha · Feb 11, 2017

I had to bring this thread back up again to post two videos. Keep in mind both of these skaters began at a young age, but I am noticing a slight trend of older skaters getting back into the sport at high levels. Do you think Shen and Zhao winning Olympic gold at ages, what was it 36 yr old or something....did that start the "comeback" trend we see now with skaters like Plushenko or Kostner??

So, these are from European Championships a few weeks ago.
32 yr old ladies single skater, mother of two kids. (She did not qualify for freeskate)

Hristina Vassileva
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d66fBtCR4V0

37 yr old female pair skater. Single mom of 3 who finds time to train, while working, coaching, and being a mom!! This pair also qualified for the freeskate. She is tough as nails!!! Link below is short program, but check out the long program as well. 4 min. at nearly 40yr old is no joke!!!

Zoe Jones
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=2s&v=OoaZjQwxFfA

First of all, can we know the regimen these ladies went through to get in kick a$$ shape after multiple children??! And how they find the time??? Goals goals #goals

TGee · Feb 12, 2017

posha said:
Whoa!! Are you serious! He must've been one hell of a gymnast. Hard worker and talented.

I don't think he's the only one, and they weren't necessarily gymnasts or dancers either.

I am aware of someone who first put on skates at 19, then worked for Disney, and later became a competitive adult skater in pairs and singles who went to ISU adult master worlds and also coaches...

And another quite late adult starter who skated in adult masters in ice dance, pairs and singles. He's now also a judge.

Skating is something to do, not just watch. Even coaches who have retired from the regular competitive track, can feel the call to train and compete...and do so in adult competitions...

While they don't go to the Olympics, Skate Canada considers top ranked adult skaters elite athletes and is working to build respect for lifelong skating.
https://skatecanada.ca/2016/04/10687/

Wish this sentiment were more widespread....

Editing to add: congratulations on your own achievements! And to your club and coaches for being supportive of adult skaters.

posha · Feb 14, 2017

I do think men have a better chance of starting late and turning "professional" even at lower levels. I know a few guys who make good money partnering girls for tests, and sometimes adult competitions. Paid to compete being the partner/coach. Awesome for them!! There is always a demand for male skaters.

Pray for me, I am re-trying my Senior free skate next week. The scariest part for an older skater is enduring those 4 min.

Thank you for encouragement @TGee, also Skate Canada is awesooommmeee!!!

gurumaaji · Feb 15, 2017

I know it would take a long time to become a professional, if at all possible at my age, and on top of it I have hip problems from being in a serious car accident last year..

posha · Feb 15, 2017

gurumaaji said:
I know it would take a long time to become a professional, if at all possible at my age, and on top of it I have hip problems from being in a serious car accident last year..

You know I start to change my mind...

I'll tell this story.

There is a guy in an adult group class who just started skating 3 months ago, inspired by watching the Yuri on Ice episodes. He has no prior knowledge about the sport. He is now familiar with Evgenia Medvedva, and any other elite skater who references YoI.
Ok so right now he is looking for a new job, he's not working but found an arena with loads of open skate ice and adult classes. He's bought men's figure skates, practices 2-4 hrs/day on ice during the week, and takes class once a week. With no private coach and using YouTube videos, he's learned bckwd/forward skating, forward edges, weak but executed FWD crossovers, 1 ft spin (travels) and BIG waltz jump. It's scratchy and his overall posture needs serious work.

The rink director is already asking him if he'd like to coach group classes next fall, and some teachers are wondering if he could start learning dance patterns in the hope of partnering with girls for tests.

So I think...depending on your situation and location....something may be possible for you. Maybe a step of faith is needed. Like many on this thread have pointed out, you don't have to be Yuzuru Hanyu to "go pro" on competitive circuit or even to eventually earn income from skating. Put it together.

uhh · Feb 15, 2017

I'm sorry, they want a guy who has less than a year's experience to coach a group class? That speaks more to the professionalism (or lack of it) of the rink director than it does to the ability of the skater in question. The progress he's made doesn't seem to be anything special for the amount of time you've said he practices.

Like others have said here & in other threads, there is a huge difference between just about getting a handle on a skill, and being able to execute it well. (and an even bigger leap to being able to explain how to do it to others and to identify & explain any mistakes they are making).

jf12 · Feb 15, 2017

uhh said:
I'm sorry, they want a guy who has less than a year's experience to coach a group class? That speaks more to the professionalism (or lack of it) of the rink director than it does to the ability of the skater in question. The progress he's made doesn't seem to be anything special for the amount of time you've said he practices.

Like others have said here & in other threads, there is a huge difference between just about getting a handle on a skill, and being able to execute it well.

I would agree and say that someone with bad posture who learned from youtube is the last person you want teaching a group class no matter what level, even rank beginners. I say that as someone without the greatest posture myself :laugh:

posha · Feb 15, 2017

uhh said:
I'm sorry, they want a guy who has less than a year's experience to coach a group class? That speaks more to the professionalism (or lack of it) of the rink director than it does to the ability of the skater in question. The progress he's made doesn't seem to be anything special for the amount of time you've said he practices.

Like others have said here & in other threads, there is a huge difference between just about getting a handle on a skill, and being able to execute it well.

Yes, it's true! I don't think the guy is seriously considering coaching next year, but yes he's got an offer!! It is a more recreational and seasonal rink--doesn't cater to competitive track skaters, mostly beginners like I would say most classes go from Basic 1- Basic 3. But a lot of kids and adults go through classes each year.

Rink to rink teaching standards can really vary. Another rink up the road demands teachers have testing credentials, competitive experience, and some PSA training (US figure skating). And references too. I can think of at least 5 rinks in my area now, within 30 mile radius, that have qualifications that are night and day. I think it depends on the rink. There are elite training centers, regional competitive centers, and purely recreational ones too. And you are right, professionalism varies from Director to Director.

Something for everyone, I guess? :-\

karne · Feb 15, 2017

posha said:
There is a guy in an adult group class who just started skating 3 months ago, inspired by watching the Yuri on Ice episodes. He has no prior knowledge about the sport. He is now familiar with Evgenia Medvedva, and any other elite skater who references YoI.
Ok so right now he is looking for a new job, he's not working but found an arena with loads of open skate ice and adult classes. He's bought men's figure skates, practices 2-4 hrs/day on ice during the week, and takes class once a week. With no private coach and using YouTube videos, he's learned bckwd/forward skating, forward edges, weak but executed FWD crossovers, 1 ft spin (travels) and BIG waltz jump. It's scratchy and his overall posture needs serious work.

The rink director is already asking him if he'd like to coach group classes next fall, and some teachers are wondering if he could start learning dance patterns in the hope of partnering with girls for tests..

Three months skating, self-taught via Youtube, and the skating director is already offering him to teach group classes? Good god no! I would be telling every parent there to avoid any group class for their child that he is teaching. The guy clearly has no idea of good technique or how to even learn, let alone teach. That's ridiculous.

karne · Feb 15, 2017

gurumaaji said:
I know it would take a long time to become a professional, if at all possible at my age, and on top of it I have hip problems from being in a serious car accident last year..

You need to talk to your doctor about the hip problems before you start. It may be that it will preclude you from jumping, or even spinning.

posha · Feb 15, 2017

karne said:
Three months skating, self-taught via Youtube, and the skating director is already offering him to teach group classes? Good god no! I would be telling every parent there to avoid any group class for their child that he is teaching. The guy clearly has no idea of good technique or how to even learn, let alone teach. That's ridiculous.

Interesting, isn't it?

Which brings up a side-topic if I --and I can only speak for skating in the U.S. I don't know how other federations do it.

To me it seems... odd... that, excluding PSA, we really don't have a standardized test for coaches... particularly at grassroots (Basic Skills) levels. There is some level of coach training via seminars and online info., and some rinks require that coaches have passed standardized tests personally before teaching someone else. (You do have to be 16 to be a like Jr. Assistant Basic Skills coach, and 18 yrs. old to be a Basic Skills teacher). For the most part, it seems U.S. Figure Skating leaves it to the rink Directors to hire professionals as they see fit and they can set the criteria for their staff. (Am I wrong?)

Remember when Arutunyan (spell check) commented in an interview that he wished some of his elite American students had had "a better education" when they were younger?? I think he was eluding to a (skating education) problem he saw-- at the grassroots level. The first teachers you have on ice are VERY important as they are setting your foundation.

Any thoughts? I know there are Russian coaches who get advanced degrees in sports science, choreography, that kind of thing but it is rare to hear about that from North American coaches. What level of "education" should coaches have before trying to teach anyone else? Don't know the answer, just putting it out there.

jf12 · Feb 15, 2017

That's a great point, posha - I've often wondered that. There's a couple of different sides to the question, including, how important is the science of coaching, and how important is the coach themselves being a good skater?

When I first started skating, I really needed to see a lot of demonstrations to be able to really do anything. I wasn't able to really grasp verbal analysis or critique without seeing a demonstration as well. What do your arms do in relation to your shoulders when checking a 3 turn? Where should the head look on the mohawk? How to hook a scratch spin? If I had a coach at that time that had poor form, even if they intellectually were telling me the right thing, I would not have been able to learn that well. I was lucky enough to have had a former world level ice dancer as a stroking coach when I first started, not that I'm that great now, but I would have been worse without her! I really think the idea that beginners specifically don't need coaches that are very skilled is wrong. For beginners, learning stroking, at the least I think coaches should have passed some higher level moves/figures tests.

Now that I am a better skater, I have enough idea of what I should be doing to be able to take tips on a haircutter spin from a coach that might never have done a haircutter himself. Elite skaters learn quads from jump experts who have never done quads themselves. I would assume at that level, the science and physiology becomes more important.

uhh · Feb 16, 2017

Wow, it seems things are done very differently in the US to where I am. Here it goes:

1: trainee assistant, which is working alongside a mentor coach while also taking the federation qualifications. They can't take classes or pupils on their own, or be paid for their work. When my coach has been working with a trainee, I'll do a jump or whatever, my coach asks the trainee what she thinks I need to change, then they give me feedback together.

2: Level 1 (Assistant), can take group learn to skate classes or individual classes, but only under the direct supervision of a fully qualified coach. The qualified coach will usually plan the lessons, but if it's a group class, the assistant might split off with a smaller group to focus on one thing while the main coach works with the rest of the group on something else. Again, can't be paid and can't teach independently.

3:Level 2 LtS: Can start getting paid, but only allowed to teach learn to skate group classes - this covers skills up to one foot spins, basic spirals, single toe and sals, but typically, they'd only be taking lessons for the newer skaters, not the more advanced ones.

After that, the categories are called "performance coaches". Goes from 2 to 5, getting a higher level depends on passing coaching badges, plus tests the coach themselves have passed, years of experience, history of success getting pupils to national or international competition, and involvement in other areas of the sport - so one of the level 4 coaches at my rink is also a technical specialist who has been on the panel for Challenger Series & JGP events, another one is part of the national federation's child protection board. The level 5 coach is a former World Champion who has also coached teams to Euros & Worlds. We also have former international competitors who are only level 2 because they haven't been coaching for all that long and they've yet to show the track record of success in coaching that the federation wants. All the coaches have to maintain their rankings by attending technical seminars & coaches conference a couple of times a year, which covers all kinds of stuff including first aid & sports science.

They are really really strict about enforcing this ranking and making sure that coaches don't coach above the level they are qualified to do. I think safety is one of the biggest concerns - you don't want someone leading even a beginner class that hasn't done an extensive first aid course & knows how to respond if someone hits their head for example. The national federation arranges the PI insurance for all rinks offering their learn to skate courses & higher training, but if a pupil is injured while being coached by someone working about the level their federation ranking allows, the insurance policy is void and the rink & coach become fully liable for any negligence claims.

posha · Feb 16, 2017

uhh said:
Wow, it seems things are done very differently in the US to where I am. Here it goes:

1: trainee assistant, which is working alongside a mentor coach while also taking the federation qualifications. They can't take classes or pupils on their own, or be paid for their work. When my coach has been working with a trainee, I'll do a jump or whatever, my coach asks the trainee what she thinks I need to change, then they give me feedback together.

2: Level 1 (Assistant), can take group learn to skate classes or individual classes, but only under the direct supervision of a fully qualified coach. The qualified coach will usually plan the lessons, but if it's a group class, the assistant might split off with a smaller group to focus on one thing while the main coach works with the rest of the group on something else. Again, can't be paid and can't teach independently.

3:Level 2 LtS: Can start getting paid, but only allowed to teach learn to skate group classes - this covers skills up to one foot spins, basic spirals, single toe and sals, but typically, they'd only be taking lessons for the newer skaters, not the more advanced ones.

After that, the categories are called "performance coaches". Goes from 2 to 5, getting a higher level depends on passing coaching badges, plus tests the coach themselves have passed, years of experience, history of success getting pupils to national or international competition, and involvement in other areas of the sport - so one of the level 4 coaches at my rink is also a technical specialist who has been on the panel for Challenger Series & JGP events, another one is part of the national federation's child protection board. The level 5 coach is a former World Champion who has also coached teams to Euros & Worlds. We also have former international competitors who are only level 2 because they haven't been coaching for all that long and they've yet to show the track record of success in coaching that the federation wants. All the coaches have to maintain their rankings by attending technical seminars & coaches conference a couple of times a year, which covers all kinds of stuff including first aid & sports science.

They are really really strict about enforcing this ranking and making sure that coaches don't coach above the level they are qualified to do. I think safety is one of the biggest concerns - you don't want someone leading even a beginner class that hasn't done an extensive first aid course & knows how to respond if someone hits their head for example. The national federation arranges the PI insurance for all rinks offering their learn to skate courses & higher training, but if a pupil is injured while being coached by someone working about the level their federation ranking allows, the insurance policy is void and the rink & coach become fully liable for any negligence claims.

Can you tell us what federation this is? Sounds good.

Princessroja · Feb 16, 2017

posha said:
Interesting, isn't it?

Which brings up a side-topic if I --and I can only speak for skating in the U.S. I don't know how other federations do it.

To me it seems... odd... that, excluding PSA, we really don't have a standardized test for coaches... particularly at grassroots (Basic Skills) levels. There is some level of coach training via seminars and online info., and some rinks require that coaches have passed standardized tests personally before teaching someone else. (You do have to be 16 to be a like Jr. Assistant Basic Skills coach, and 18 yrs. old to be a Basic Skills teacher). For the most part, it seems U.S. Figure Skating leaves it to the rink Directors to hire professionals as they see fit and they can set the criteria for their staff. (Am I wrong?)

Remember when Arutunyan (spell check) commented in an interview that he wished some of his elite American students had had "a better education" when they were younger?? I think he was eluding to a (skating education) problem he saw-- at the grassroots level. The first teachers you have on ice are VERY important as they are setting your foundation.

Any thoughts? I know there are Russian coaches who get advanced degrees in sports science, choreography, that kind of thing but it is rare to hear about that from North American coaches. What level of "education" should coaches have before trying to teach anyone else? Don't know the answer, just putting it out there.

We actually have a similar problem in dance, my field. I live in a rural area (what I wouldn't give to have five rinks in 30 minutes! I have one small seasonal outdoor rink 30 minutes away; my lesson rink is 45 minutes away) and the dance studios are quite poor. I don't know how widespread the problem is in skating but in dance there also is no real certification process, and anyone who wants to just starts teaching. It leads to horrible, horrible technique and a lot of wasted time and money for young dancers. In most cases it pretty well ruins any hope they had of doing something with it; it's not easy to undo 10+ years of horrific training and retrain at college age. I'm a dance teacher and would be more than willing to jump through whatever regulatory hoops got created if it would lower that problem. Surely USFSA has some kind of training/certification program to prevent a similar issue with skaters... right?

Am I too late to become professional?

shiroKJ

Back to the forest you go.

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

NanaPat

Alex D

sandraskates

posha

TGee

posha

gurumaaji

Match Penalty

posha

uhh

jf12

posha

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

posha

jf12

uhh

posha

Princessroja

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