2017 Europeans Short Dance

all i will say... is that it's hard to judge... it goes so fast and judges have to write things down and enter things... if an extra rotation goes on a lift while a judge was writing down anything ... it's going to be missed... i was at canadian nationals and talked with someone taking the course on judging by skate canada...

it was really revealing and interesting... it's so much easier for us at home to look at elements...

on the other end, we all wish for perfectly judged competitions, and perfect following of the rules...

all I will say here... i do have some favoured teams in the event but i dislike the drama and assumptions made here.... judging is tough, especially ice dance...

I think we all need to learn to live with that aspect of the sport

Wow! I hadn't heard about this!

(Because Eurosport were only showing highlights of the Free Dance, I decided not to watch the FD LIVE with the Russians. Instead I'm going to watch a combination of the archived ISU stream on Eurovision and the Eurosport highlights, later today)

sarama said:

I can't remember something like this in the past

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The Ladies FS at last season's British Championships. Zoe Jones won, with Danielle Harrison in second.

But it turned out that Danielle had done a 3S1T combo, but the single toe on the end wasn't noticed by the judges. And because she had done another triple Salchow on it's own later on, it was put down as a repeated jump.

There wasn't a protest from any of the skaters that time. As far as I can remember, one of the officials noticed the mistake very quickly. But it dragged out for a few hours as NISA had to get advice from the ISU on how to proceed.

Although fixing it did not affect the FS order, it did mean that the overall winner changed.

Zoe had been declared champion, but now Danielle was champion.

So, bearing in mind that this was Zoe's first time competing at Senior Nationals in 13 years, this changing of the results did not go down well with the audience.

But, at the end of the day, it was the right thing to do.

CaroLiza_fan

4everchan said:

all i will say... is that it's hard to judge... it goes so fast and judges have to write things down and enter things... if an extra rotation goes on a lift while a judge was writing down anything ... it's going to be missed... i was at canadian nationals and talked with someone taking the course on judging by skate canada...

it was really revealing and interesting... it's so much easier for us at home to look at elements...

on the other end, we all wish for perfectly judged competitions, and perfect following of the rules...

all I will say here... i do have some favoured teams in the event but i dislike the drama and assumptions made here.... judging is tough, especially ice dance...

I think we all need to learn to live with that aspect of the sport

Click to expand...

I agree. It's not that there aren't things that can be done better, or that there are never problems with the judging, but it is nowhere as bad as it was in the past today. The truth is, any judged sport is going to have a certain level of subjectivity. Judges will miss things, won't always be consistent with calls, etc. because humans do these things. That doesn't mean it isn't frustrating or anything, but it is just going to happen. And yes, judges will be biased towards certain teams, but that doesn't even need any politicking to be true. Different people have different stylistic preferences as we see on the forum, so you're naturally (even without it being a conscious decision), going to be inclined to be little nicer to a team/skater whose style you prefer. And if a skater/team is seen as the number one, it will help them in terms of scores, but I don't blame the judges (to a certain extent anyways) because even subconsciously, they will be expecting them to be really good and that will affect how they view them. Same with some skaters getting under rotation calls way more- if you have a reputation for it, they will be expecting it, so they will look harder.

And to be clear again, it's not that I think the judging has no problems or that it is always completely fair, but I've seen so many people on here say "oh I can't watch such and such discipline anymore because of the judging" and thats just not something I would let ruin my enjoyment of the sport. Because some of that is, as I've said, an inherent part of judged sports. Even in hockey, which isn't a judged sport you have the referees. And they miss calls sometimes and they aren't always consistent in their calls. And sometimes they make mistakes that affect the outcome of games. But that's because they're human and those are things humans do. Now obviously the two sports are very different, but for me it's interesting to think about.

Eta: And I didn't watch this whole event, so I have no opinion on the judging here.

4everchan said:

all i will say... is that it's hard to judge... it goes so fast and judges have to write things down and enter things... if an extra rotation goes on a lift while a judge was writing down anything ... it's going to be missed... i was at canadian nationals and talked with someone taking the course on judging by skate canada...

it was really revealing and interesting... it's so much easier for us at home to look at elements...

Click to expand...

honestly, how can you say something like that?

The video tools made available to the judges are very powerful and especially designed for them. The judges have access to all kinds of detailed videos on the spot and they can replay any element at any time. Of course, no one from home has access to such tools!! No one! (well, I would really like to!)

In addition, the judges can rely on the technical (media and video) team seating next to them in the arena and ready to support them at any time.

The technical panel has full access to all practice sessions, which are - BTW - fully recorded and which can be used for replay as well if needed.

Furthermore, I would expect the judges to strictly observe any non compliance to the rules, it's by essence the role of judges.

4everchan said:

on the other end, we all wish for perfectly judged competitions, and perfect following of the rules...

all I will say here... i do have some favoured teams in the event but i dislike the drama and assumptions made here.... judging is tough, especially ice dance...

I think we all need to learn to live with that aspect of the sport

Click to expand...

Regarding the judges of the tech panel, I can imagine they disagree once from time to time. No problem.
Now when they spend most of their time fighting because they disagree then it's clear there's a problem somewhere.

You know, it's no point to hide the reality.

As a coach told me during the Europeans, all the skaters are aware of the power of the lobbies and other "political" pressures especially in the pre Olympic and Olympic years. Either they cope with it otherwise they just have to give up and do something else...

alain06fr said:

honestly, how can you say something like that?

The video tools made available to the judges are very powerful and especially designed for them. The judges have access to all kinds of detailed videos on the spot and they can replay any element at any time. Of course, no one from home has access to such tools!! No one! (well, I would really like to!)

In addition, the judges can rely on the technical (media and video) team seating next to them in the arena and ready to support them at any time.

The technical panel has full access to all practice sessions, which are - BTW - fully recorded and which can be used for replay as well if needed.

Furthermore, I would expect the judges to strictly observe any non compliance to the rules, it's by essence the role of judges.





Regarding the judges of the tech panel, I can imagine they disagree once from time to time. No problem.
Now when they spend most of their time fighting because they disagree then it's clear there's a problem somewhere.

You know, it's no point to hide the reality.

As a coach told me during the Europeans, all the skaters are aware of the power of the lobbies and other "political" pressures especially in the pre Olympic and Olympic years. Either they cope with it otherwise they just have to give up and do something else...

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Well it explains why we always see little fluctuation of score after finished skate. It's good that they can check it as some errors like slight touch-down of free foot on the landing could be invisible in real time but warrant lower GOE.