Piseev and the Eastern Bloc | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Piseev and the Eastern Bloc

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Jaana said:
Excuse me Joe, but the Russian judge did not do that! The Russian judge put their own team (L&A) on first place to win and not the French dance pair. It was a 5/4 split for the French team.

Marjaana
Jaana - If that is correct, then what was the point of Didier telling Legounge to put the Russian Pairs team first? Why did the ISU not continue the investigation? Was the Russian dance judge told at the last minuite that the deal is off?

If the Russians were not a part of this, then neither were the French because it takes two to collaborate so what were the French admitting to?

Please understand, I am not bashing the French or the Russians. I just want the truth which we will never know until the book is written in 2050 or the ISU give an honest investigation into the whole matter now.

Joe
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To me, the most telling comment from Le Gougne was when she said that the lobbying began way back in September, because ""They needed my vote,,, It was going to be very close."

What was going to be very close? She can't be referring to the skating, because that hadn't happened yet. So to me, "close" must have meant that as soon as the nationalities of the judging panel were announced, people already knew how many B&S judges there were and how many S&P judges. As Madame Le Gougne goes on to say, she was targeted because she was "in the middle."

Maybe she, unlike the other judges, was waiting to see the actual performances before she cast her vote.

Mathman
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Has it occurred to anyone that the Russian judge may have placed the Russian ice dancers first because the French judge botched the deal and the Russians had to share the gold medal?

I agree that the fact that the ISU never fully investigated the matter casts a shadow on the whole judging process. If colloboration among the judges is commonplace, then protecting the judges from scrutiny under CoP is a bad move.
 

Skate Sandee

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
chuckm said:
Has it occurred to anyone that the Russian judge may have placed the Russian ice dancers first because the French judge botched the deal and the Russians had to share the gold medal?

Yup. It occurs to me everytime someone makes the arguement that there was no deal since the Russian judge put the Russian dance pair first. If one part of a scandal gets uncovered before the plan is over, does anyone seriously believe that the plan would be carried out as planned? I mean "DUH"!

If anything, the timing of the alleged scandal benfited the Russian judge because that person could go ahead and abandon the deal and vote whatever way he/she wanted (in this case for their own skaters).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Skate Sandee said:
If anything, the timing of the alleged scandal benfited the Russian judge because that person could go ahead and abandon the deal and vote whatever way he/she wanted (in this case for their own skaters).
Ah, see, that's the beauty of the secret judging provision of the CoP. Now you will be able to make any deal you want, then doublecross your erstwhile accomplices at the last minute, and no one is the wiser. Pretty clever, if you ask me.

Another thing I thought of was, maybe Le Gougne's vote was not in payment for expected support for Anassina and Peiserat, but rather paying back old debts. Didn't Philippe Candeloro win TWO Olympic bronze medals?

Mathman
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
There were ten judges on the SLC Dance panel. Each of four judges was the substitute judge for one phase.

Five judges placed A/P 1st in each phase they judged:

Balkov-UKR (CD1, CD2, FD)
Gasiorowska-LTU (CD1, OD, FD)
Karnolska-BUL (all)
Nechkina-AZE (all)
Alperin-HUN (CD1, CD2, OD)

In addition, Gordon-Poltarak-POL scored A/P cumulatively higher than L/A (1st in CD1, CD2, and FD, and 2nd in OD). Although she had L/A in 1st in the OD, she also had them 3rd and 4th in the CD's, making her total ranking after the OD 1-A/P, 2-L/A, and then gave A/P first in the FD.

The judges that had A/P first in all phases judged until the FD were:

Wehinger (SUI)
Shekhovtseva (RUS)

In addition, the following judges had A/P over L/A until the FD:

Wolter (GER)
Zuccaro (ITA)

A/P were unanimously in 1st place going into the FD. Until the FD, it looked like a competition for the silver between L/A and F-P/M, as the total panel was split evenly after the OD (in the phases they judged), with five for each team. One of the judges who had F-P/M over L/A after the OD, Alperin, was the substitute judge in the FD, and F-P/M had mistakes in the FD that really sank them.
 

Kateri

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I'm with Koroleva on this one.

I don't know what happened at SLC, but am inclined to think it was more cock-up than conspiracy. I (perhaps foolishly) tend to think that most judges try and judge fairly, although they may of course be unconsciously influenced by cultural biases. But I don't think any more than a tiny minority actually set out to pre-decide the results. (I'll admit that my knowledge is mostly post-1998 though.)

And I'm just not sure I believe that any such thing exists as the "eastern bloc", or if it did once, it is long gone.

I'm from the UK, somewhere that has long felt itself to be half-way between Europe and America in terms of culture. I personally don't feel I have any bias to one side more than the other, and I think that figure-skating judging is not, overall, biased towards one side or the other either. What you do get is bias towards individual skaters on the basis of reputation, but that can affect any nationality.

jmo,

k.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Koroleva said:
Oh please! This whole thread is the most rediculous thing I have heard all day.
Oh, come on, K., you are just trying to spoil our fun!

Plus, you have to admit, that Candeloro thing has to have SOME explanation!;)

MM
 

PrincessLeppard

~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~
Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Oh, poo, Mathman. :p Candeloro deserved those medals! I don't like his skating now, but as an amateur, he had moments of brilliance. The Godfather, anyone? And The Three Musketeers is one of my all time favorite long programs, and completely deserving of the bronze. It's really the only thing I remember from the men's event, other than Ilia's hideous shirt. :eek:

Anyway, sorry to ramble off topic....

Laura :)

PS In 1994, wasn't he one of the few men to actually stay on his feet?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Mathman said:
To me, the most telling comment from Le Gougne was when she said that the lobbying began way back in September, because ""They needed my vote,,, It was going to be very close."

What was going to be very close? She can't be referring to the skating, because that hadn't happened yet. So to me, "close" must have meant that as soon as the nationalities of the judging panel were announced, people already knew how many B&S judges there were and how many S&P judges. As Madame Le Gougne goes on to say, she was targeted because she was "in the middle." Mathman

Was there hanky panky going on back in september to ensure that there would be two sets of judges so that the results would be close? They were set for the onslaught and much depended on LeGougne taking orders from Didier. Why did Didier give those orders? Was it the Russians? It had to be for some reason, and I don't believe it was pay back. I think Candeloro deserved those medals.

The BIG question if why was it not followed up by the ISU?

Joe
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
PrincessLeppard said:
PS In 1994, wasn't he one of the few men to actually stay on his feet?

In the short program, yup.
He was 5th in the long, but two of the guys who beat him had been 9th and 12th in the short, so guess who got the medal.
 

Koroleva

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 11, 2004
Mathman said:
Oh, come on, K., you are just trying to spoil our fun!

Plus, you have to admit, that Candeloro thing has to have SOME explanation!;)

MM

Well I just don't want people to think there is an Eastern bloc anymore because there isn't.

:laugh: Actually I think he deserved his bronze medals. :)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Koroleva said:
Well I just don't want people to think there is an Eastern bloc anymore because there isn't.

:laugh: Actually I think he deserved his bronze medals. :)

Koroleva - I don't think the eastern bloc exists anymore either, that is, those who do not have their roots of their language as slavic. However, there is a slavic cultural bloc in figures skating There are at least 11 slavic speacking Federations in Europe and the number grows when you take into account the numbers in Asia. I don't believe Piseev has complete control over the countries. He doesn;t have to. Their cultural likes and dislikes are all intertwined.

You might say the English speaking countries are similar but they are not. They are scattered around the world and developed their own culture. Not all of them play cricket.. They never had a unified Leader, such as Krutschev. And many of them do not have figure skating federations.

The cultural side of judging is very subliminal and very subjective. If there was no secrecy in judging one would see how certain Nations will judge the same for cultural reasons.

Joe
 

thisthingcalledlove

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Skate Sandee said:
Yup. It occurs to me everytime someone makes the arguement that there was no deal since the Russian judge put the Russian dance pair first. If one part of a scandal gets uncovered before the plan is over, does anyone seriously believe that the plan would be carried out as planned? I mean "DUH"!

If anything, the timing of the alleged scandal benfited the Russian judge because that person could go ahead and abandon the deal and vote whatever way he/she wanted (in this case for their own skaters).

Ironically, the Russian judge you speak of is none other than Piseev's wife, Alla Shekhovtseva.

The panel in SLC is almost identical to the panel in 1998 (differences were the absence of Canada and France, and the addition of Israel and Bulgaria). I personally never liked the fact that only the top ten countries in any discipline got to send judges for that event in the olympics under the old system.
 
Last edited:

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
thisthingcalledlove said:
Ironically, the Russian judge you speak of is none other than Piseev's wife, Alla Shekhovtseva
... and she is a close personal friend of Natalia Lininchuk, the coach of Lobacheva & Averbukh. If anything, Shekhovtseva complained throughout the whole 2000-2001 season that she thought L&A were better than both Anissina & Peizerat and Fusar-Poli & Margaglio, but felt that she just couldn´t put them first since it would go against the ISU line. To summarize, I don´t think that ANYBODY would be foolish enough to trust Shekhovtseva with undermarking L&A. Given all the history, it just doesn´t make any sense.

Now, getting back to the original (much more interesting) question. What countries could actually be a part of that so-called "Eastern block"? I´d argue that none except for Israel (which is in that block for very odd reasons), and relatively minor federations such as Kazakhstan and Azerbajan (none of them Slavic, BTW). Traditional allies such as Ukraine, Belorussia, etc. just don´t have the same interests.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Ptichka said:
...Shekhovtseva complained throughout the whole 2000-2001 season that she thought L&A were better than both Anissina & Peizerat and Fusar-Poli & Margaglio, but felt that she just couldn´t put them first since it would go against the ISU line.
To me, that quote sums up ice dance judging in a nutshell. This experienced judge could not vote for for the team that she thought skated the best because "it would go against the ISU line."

Mathman :\
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Oh dear, it's not just 'bloc voting', it's the 'ISU line'. So, that is why the there is secrecy in judging!! hmmmm. Let's keep that 'ISU line' active. :sheesh:

Ya know, if figure skating was a building, I would just raze it and start all over.

Joe
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Mathman said:
To me, that quote sums up ice dance judging in a nutshell. This experienced judge could not vote for for the team that she thought skated the best because "it would go against the ISU line."
I would interpret it more like "me think they are pretty, but those bad guys all say I have to look at the edges, and footwork, and twizzles, and all that other stuff"

Joesitz said:
Ya know, if figure skating was a building, I would just raze it and start all over.
Perhaps it's growing up in the USSR, with its Revolutionary history, that makes me skeptical of razing anything and starting over... :\
 
Top