2017 Junior Worlds Preevent Dance Chat

cheerknithanson said:

I want both the Parson siblings and McNamara/Carpenter to get onto the podium. Like that my biggest hope.

Look like the Parsons are most likely going to win it, but I want those two teams to finish in the top 2. Yeah they're my faves of dance lol. I want them to skate their hearts out and remember LEVELS LEVELS LEVELS LEVELS!!!!

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Looking for some great things from both of these top US teams as they skate for the last time as Juniors, and from C/P as well. USA sweep might be too much to ask (but it could happen as L/D have been inconsistent this year). But these top four teams are all good so anything can happen!

yyzskater said:

Also, why are there no just-age eligible dance team? Having 13/14 year olds in jr seems rather common in singles, but ice dancers always seem on the older end of juniors.

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There are no just-age eligible dance teams at the top from the U.S. right now because the top novice team from 2015 & 2016 is still too young to compete on the JGP. They moved up nationally into juniors this year but not internationally. The Greens defeated Lajoie & Lagha this summer, Lewis & Bye twice, and split placements with Carreira & Ponomarenko at Lake Placid. The Greens also had straight level 4s in the SD at Nationals outside the fall that took them out of the final group prior to the free. They are young & have a lot of time to build. Also likely have a lot to learn about international competition. But they are fast, have terrific lifts, and do have the potential to upset the applecart next season.

SnowWhite said:

With the two top American teams, I assume it had a lot to do with the strength of senior US ice dance, but I don't really know. I looked at the top nine WJC entries in terms of PBs (nine because I was mostly interested in which teams had higher PBs than Lajoie/Lagha). The three American and Russian entries, Abachkina/Thauron, Kuzmichova/Sinicyn and L/L. Five of them will age out next season, the two Russian teams behind Loboda/Drozd each have one more season of junior eligibility and then L/L and C/P have two seasons each (and for both it's the girl who'll age them out).

I know when Tessa and Scott made there debut at WJC (the same season their JGP debut), Tessa was 14 and Scott was 16, based on the current rules, I believe they would have been age eligible the previous season (I don't know if they were the same back then). The Shibs competed on the JGP circuit as soon as Maia was eligible and went to WJC that season (they were 14 and 17). D/W debuted at the 2004 WJC like V/M and were 17 and 16, though they had competed on the JGP circuit the season before. P/C went to their first WJC in 2010, when they were 14 and 15. They would have been age eligible the year before I believe. I/K were 15 and 18 at their first WJC.

ETA And I agree with you Blackey that V/M were ones who stood out early on. Which isn't that surprising I guess, given that they were the first ever (and so far only) ice dancers to win gold at their first Olympics and the youngest to win the title too (and they will be for at least the next five years, since P/C would be older if they were to win). I remember how impressed the commentators were by them at their Worlds debut when they came sixth in 2007 at 17 and 19.

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Great analysis, just a small correction: Lajoie/ Lagha still have three years of Junior eligibility, one more than Carreira/Ponomarenco (Lajoie is born November 2000, Carreira is born April 2000)

julieca said:

Great analysis, just a small correction: Lajoie/ Lagha still have three years of Junior eligibility, one more than Carreira/Ponomarenco (Lajoie is born November 2000, Carreira is born April 2000)

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I may have reversed day and month in my head. Thanks for the correction.

yyzskater said:

Quick question... Why does it seem more common in ice dance for skaters to age out rather than opt for moving to Senior of their own accord?

Also, why are there no just-age eligible dance team? Having 13/14 year olds in jr seems rather common in singles, but ice dancers always seem on the older end of juniors.

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Some great responses to your great questions in this thread. I'll throw in my 2 cents as well, if you don't mind.

In ice dance you've got to change a bit every season. You can't keep an SD for more than one season, unless you revisit it when the required rhythm returns or you decide to do something like expand an SD into a FD (V/M did the reverse with Hip Hip Chin Chin). It helps to stay a junior to get used to doing a variety of patterns and develop the necessary expression for each. Teams may also be growing and getting used to new centres of balance and height differences. So working on and adjusting lifts, spins, and twizzles will take some time as well. Some teams also take time to find their identity and experiment with different styles. In some cases (like the US) the senior ranks are very competitive or (like in France) there is a top team that is very highly ranked so teams prefer to stay junior as long as they can to avoid them while they develop. I am also aware that some ice dancers who are junior aged desire to finish their high school education before moving to the senior ranks. I think there may be financial reasons as well. As mentioned, some skaters find new partners after some time as juniors. That was the case with Kaitlyn Weaver & Andrew Poje.

As for the second question, it's answered in part by the response to the first. But you bring up another point here. The difference between the novice and junior levels in ice dance is a bit bigger than in singles. In singles you've got restrictions on jumps (e.g. you can't do a 3-3 combo or 3A in the SP), there are fewer PCS categories, the PCS factors are different for the men, the maximum level you can get for anything is level 3, etc. But you still have an SP and an FS and a lot of the same things you'd see at the junior level. In ice dance at the advanced novice level you have two pattern dances, each with a factored weight of 0.5. They are like the compulsory dances of the past. The factored score from each is added to the FD score. The FDs have most of the elements we see at the junior level. So a team coming right out of novice won't have as much experience with junior level elements (like a not touching midline step sequence). As such, they're likely to have even more lack of experience at the senior level where you've got partial step sequences too. So teams take time to learn the rules and regulations of ice dance but also to show off their own innovation and creativity.

Mango said:

Some great responses to your great questions in this thread. I'll throw in my 2 cents as well, if you don't mind.

In ice dance you've got to change a bit every season. You can't keep an SD for more than one season, unless you revisit it when the required rhythm returns or you decide to do something like expand an SD into a FD (V/M did the reverse with Hip Hip Chin Chin). It helps to stay a junior to get used to doing a variety of patterns and develop the necessary expression for each. Teams may also be growing and getting used to new centres of balance and height differences. So working on and adjusting lifts, spins, and twizzles will take some time as well. Some teams also take time to find their identity and experiment with different styles. In some cases (like the US) the senior ranks are very competitive or (like in France) there is a top team that is very highly ranked so teams prefer to stay junior as long as they can to avoid them while they develop. I am also aware that some ice dancers who are junior aged desire to finish their high school education before moving to the senior ranks. I think there may be financial reasons as well. As mentioned, some skaters find new partners after some time as juniors. That was the case with Kaitlyn Weaver & Andrew Poje.

As for the second question, it's answered in part by the response to the first. But you bring up another point here. The difference between the novice and junior levels in ice dance is a bit bigger than in singles. In singles you've got restrictions on jumps (e.g. you can't do a 3-3 combo or 3A in the SP), there are fewer PCS categories, the PCS factors are different for the men, the maximum level you can get for anything is level 3, etc. But you still have an SP and an FS and a lot of the same things you'd see at the junior level. In ice dance at the advanced novice level you have two pattern dances, each with a factored weight of 0.5. They are like the compulsory dances of the past. The factored score from each is added to the FD score. The FDs have most of the elements we see at the junior level. So a team coming right out of novice won't have as much experience with junior level elements (like a not touching midline step sequence). As such, they're likely to have even more lack of experience at the senior level where you've got partial step sequences too. So teams take time to learn the rules and regulations of ice dance but also to show off their own innovation and creativity.

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Thanks for all the great responses!! It seems ice dance has so many more factors than singles when it comes to competition strategy. However, this brings up another question. In Canada, it seems there are many ice dance teams who seemed to have just "picked up" the discipline in addition to singles. They don't seem to be staying in the lower levels to learn these compulsory dances. For example, I think D'Alessandro and Waddell only started ice dance a couple years ago and already plan on going junior next year. Do you think this will be detrimental for them in the long run vs skaters who have done ice dance from the beginning and went through the ranks? Or does it not matter.

Just a thought that popped in my head...

And when do these teams have to choose a discipline to focus on. Or can they continue with both on an international level?

yyzskater said:

Thanks for all the great responses!! It seems ice dance has so many more factors than singles when it comes to competition strategy. However, this brings up another question. In Canada, it seems there are many ice dance teams who seemed to have just "picked up" the discipline in addition to singles. They don't seem to be staying in the lower levels to learn these compulsory dances. For example, I think D'Alessandro and Waddell only started ice dance a couple years ago and already plan on going junior next year. Do you think this will be detrimental for them in the long run vs skaters who have done ice dance from the beginning and went through the ranks? Or does it not matter.

Just a thought that popped in my head...

And when do these teams have to choose a discipline to focus on. Or can they continue with both on an international level?

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Sorry this is a bit topic:

In Canada the thing is that the pattern dance changes depending on the competition. For example, at the novice level this season it was Blues & Quickstep at sectionals, Blues & Westminster Waltz at Challenge, and Westminster Waltz & Quickstep at Nationals. So the novice skaters do a few different pattern dances per season. Skate Canada's site publishes which PDs will be used at which competitions as well as the FD requirements. If you go through juvenile, pre-novice, and novice you'll have done a handful at least. I am also unable to provide a detailed response because I don't skate, but I am aware that Skate Canada's testing system also has pattern dances (e.g. see Hope McLean's test results). So you'll get some exposure even if you are flying through the ranks.

The other thing I think about skaters wanting to move up to junior and not stay at the novice level is that there are more restrictions the lower your level. So if you want to learn and do the interesting things then it's unlikely you'd want to stay at the novice level. But for Natalie & Bruce because they won gold they had to move up. So they had to move from pre-novice to novice. And they'll likely have to move up from novice to junior. It's the same way for singles skaters though (like Joseph Phan & Sarah Tamura who both won junior titles last season and skated as seniors nationally this season despite being on the JGP).

I am not sure if Natalie & Bruce are eligible for the JGP next season because I think Natalie is still 12 (I read she was 10 in November 2014 so doing the math...). I think skating nationally at the junior level will be ok for them. It will help them get a feel for the more challenging aspects of SDs vs those pattern dances with the same music everyone uses. They are also a bit prone to mistakes from what I've seen this season so hopefully they'll get to work on those. Normally I think a team who hasn't done ice dance for very long would have issues moving up too soon and it would be challenging to go through the ranks that quick. But these two seem to have a great deal of talent for ice dance. Both their singles careers dipped this season but their ice dance skills are still some of the best amongst the emerging talents in Canada, IMO.

There is no set timeline for choosing a discipline. It's more up to the skaters to decide. Like Julianne Seguin was skating as a single lady and doing pairs with Charlie at the same time. Meagan Duhamel has done the same too. I think it depends on how much the skaters themselves feel comfortable doing and their schedules. I am more familiar with skaters doing pairs and singles at the same time so I'm not sure about ice dancers. But I guess if it's clear your singles career isn't working out then you'd stick to ice dance. Or vice versa. Or maybe if your partner hangs up the skates. It would be challenging to do two very different disciplines at an international level but if someone's got the drive then they can go for it. From what I've seen most decide by the time they turn senior or shortly after which discipline to focus on.

Ice Dance said:

Random fact:

I was looking up information on the JGP wikipedia pages today & noticed that national flags for all the dance teams were very well color-coordinated. Ice dance teams from four countries won all the dance medals on the JGP this season. All four countries--U.S., Russia, France, & Czech Republic--have the same three colors on their flags.

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a dance team from Czech Rep won a GP?? I forgot that. Who are they?

nevermind, i googled it

sunnystars said:

Carreira/Ponomarenko skated very strong in US Nationals so it's possible.
Then again, I gonna assume that RusFed will do anything to keep Loboda/Drozd on the podium (which yes, they deserve anyway due to their consistent skating this season)

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See, that's the problem: that parenthetical statement is the very essence of "reputation scoring."

Sorry, I want to see the three teams who performed the best at that event to be on the podium.

I hope Carreira/Ponomarenko win a medal because I prefer them to M/C.

I tried to like M/C, but they rubbed me the wrong way.

Crossover said:

I hope Carreira/Ponomarenko win a medal because I prefer them to M/C.

I tried to like M/C, but they rubbed me the wrong way.

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M/C are very quirky and sometimes that quirkiness is really entertaining and makes you see a particular form of dancing in a new light (aka Last Year's Programs) and sometimes it is just uhm quirky (This Year's Programs).

She's definitely from the Silent Film School of Facial Expressions.

WeakAnkles said:

M/C are very quirky and sometimes that quirkiness is really entertaining and makes you see a particular form of dancing in a new light (aka Last Year's Programs) and sometimes it is just uhm quirky (This Year's Programs).

She's definitely from the Silent Film School of Facial Expressions.

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I for one love the quirkiness! Sure it's not for everyone and I can understand why. But to me, I love that they go out-of-the-box.

M/C remind me quite a bit of early Davis/White. So perhaps for some if you couldn't get into D/W you won't get into M/C.

I'm gonna be looking at Shpilevaya/Smirnov. They won the Russian junior title. I think they could be as high as 4th.

http://thefinersports.com/2017/03/2017-junior-worlds-field-guide-ice-dance/

Good preview for anyone who hasn't been following super closely and needs a refresher.

WeakAnkles said:

She's definitely from the Silent Film School of Facial Expressions.

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IMO, Lorraine is from the fabulous school of story-telling & dance expression. As opposed to the I'm-so-gorgeous-I-must-be-an-ice-dancer-even-though-I-have-limited-expression school of dance expression. I prefer the Grishuk/McNamara/Cappellini school, but I get that some people prefer the subtlety with less versatility. I wish M&C were telling a story this season, but I get that they are trying to expand their repertoire.

For me, Lorraine is like the quote from Anne of Green Gables. Where Marilla explains that to Gilbert, alongside Anne, all the other pretty girls are like "spineless nothings." Lorraine just turns on like a light. Even in the exhibitions, I know exactly what character she's playing. It's always different, and it always stands out.

I do not see Davis & White in Quinn & Lorraine at all. More Pechalat & Bourzat. But D&W had a great record so far be it from me to discourage the comparison.

It's been a tough season. But I love M&C anyway. I really hope we will get to see them continue to grow for years in the senior ranks. And I know better than to hope, when it comes to the junior teams I love. But I do.

As for Junior Worlds, I just hope for a great competition. That all these teams will skate their best, and the best will rise to the top.

Ice Dance said:

IMO, Lorraine is from the fabulous school of story-telling & dance expression. As opposed to the I'm-so-gorgeous-I-must-be-an-ice-dancer-even-though-I-have-limited-expression school of dance expression. I prefer the Grishuk/McNamara/Cappellini school, but I get that some people prefer the subtlety with less versatility. I wish M&C were telling a story this season, but I get that they are trying to expand their repertoire.

For me, Lorraine is like the quote from Anne of Green Gables. Where Marilla explains that to Gilbert, alongside Anne, all the other pretty girls are like "spineless nothings." Lorraine just turns on like a light. Even in the exhibitions, I know exactly what character she's playing. It's always different, and it always stands out.

I do not see Davis & White in Quinn & Lorraine at all. More Pechalat & Bourzat. But D&W had a great record so far be it from me to discourage the comparison.

It's been a tough season. But I love M&C anyway. I really hope we will get to see them continue to grow for years in the senior ranks. And I know better than to hope, when it comes to the junior teams I love. But I do.

As for Junior Worlds, I just hope for a great competition. That all these teams will skate their best, and the best will rise to the top.

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Don't get me wrong; you can count me as a fan. But I stand by what I say. Her facial expressions can be a bit OTT. Then again, OTT is better than SCF (Stone Cold Face).

Isn't it in the rules that ice dancers have to be good looking? Not that I'm complaining...

WeakAnkles said:

Don't get me wrong; you can count me as a fan. But I stand by what I say. Her facial expressions can be a bit OTT. Then again, OTT is better than SCF (Stone Cold Face).

Isn't it in the rules that ice dancers have to be good looking? Not that I'm complaining...

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What are you trying to say lol? In the 2nd paragraph.

Name me one actively unattractive ice dancers. Go on, I dare ya!



Not that I'm complaining... LOL!

WeakAnkles said:

Name me one actively unattractive ice dancers. Go on, I dare ya!



Not that I'm complaining... LOL!

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Hahahaha niceeeeeeee.