2017 Jr Worlds Ladies SP

Baron Vladimir · Mar 19, 2017

psusanne said:
No. As I posted before, judges are looking at thinks like carriage, quality and clarity of movement. They obviously think that the tons of things she does outweigh her shortcomings. And those things aren't subjective, you can compare it easily and when you watch Zagitova right after Honda it's only too obvious. But Zagitova is the rightful winner of course. It's only that her PCS is a bit high. I don't have a real problem with that as long as the ranking is ok (I was offended by the result at Russian Nationals tough).
But that's really all I have to say on that matter. If you can't value the beauty of good posture and extensions I feel a bit sorry for you, but if you're happy with it that's totally fine with me. I only wanted to explain to you that judges do value those things, as they should because it's in the rulebook for good reason.

Of course that i value beauty of good posture and extensions. But beauty of good posture is not something which is judged, because you can't judge beauty. Clarity of movements is a thing which judges are looking for and that is a thing which is not the same as beautiful posture. Saying that someone don't deserve to win because she has bad postures has nothing to do figure skating judging and it's not an argument which can define someone's win (or no win) in figure skating.

solani · Mar 19, 2017

Baron Vladimir said:
Of course that i value beauty of good posture and extensions. But beauty of good posture is not something which is judged, because you can't judge beauty. Clarity of movements is a thing which judges are looking for and that is a thing which is not the same as beautiful posture. Saying that someone don't deserve to win because she has bad postures has nothing to do figure skating judging and it's not an argument which can define someone's win (or no win) in figure skating.

Please see http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/carriage

carriage /ˈkerɪʤ/ noun
6
[noncount] somewhat old-fashioned : the way in which a person's body is positioned when the person is moving, standing, etc.

a dancer noted for her elegant carriage [=posture]

Baron Vladimir · Mar 19, 2017

psusanne said:
Please see http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/carriage

It's not me who are complaining about judges score, which obviously mean i understand them. But you don't understand what i was saying. What judges are looking for are clear movements and movements which include all body. That doesn't need to be balletic(elegant) carriage. You can perform hip-hop or techno or aboriginal movements and still got big PE mark. That isn't beautiful for you or maybe for some of the judges, but that doesn't mean skater didn't met judges criteria. Zagitova's movements even they are not beautiful for you met judges criteria, obviously cause they are scored that way.

solani · Mar 20, 2017

Baron Vladimir said:
It's not me who are complaining about judges score, which obviously mean i understand them. But you don't understand what i was saying. What judges are looking for are clear movements and movements which include all body. That doesn't need to be balletic(elegant) carriage. You can perform hip-hop or techno or aboriginal movements and still got big PE mark. That isn't beautiful for you or maybe for some of the judges, but that doesn't mean skater didn't met judges criteria. Zagitova's movements even they are not beautiful for you met judges criteria, obviously cause they are scored that way.

Ok. And you must be right of course because the judges agree with you.

I always thought that the choreography, the movements and the performance should actually fit the music. That a ballet dancer's carriage is needed for performing a great ballet style figure skating program. Obviously you think that it's fine if a skater just skates around like crazy, doing all the skating moves he/she can do, no matter how sloppy the execution in order to get a great PCS. Let's see if Zagitova's choreographies are any different next season. I still think she has room to grow and I would like to see her doing different styles. Ballet is not for her at this point. It would be quite sad if she wouldn't try to improve because she's getting those good marks anyway. I think the judges are giving her and her team the wrong message.
That's really all I have to say on this topic. I want to avoid repeating myself.

Baron Vladimir · Mar 20, 2017

psusanne said:
Ok. And you must be right of course because the judges agree with you.
I always thought that the choreography, the movements and the performance should actually fit the music. That a ballet dancer's carriage is needed for performing a great ballet style figure skating program. Obviously you think that it's fine if a skater just skates around like crazy, doing all the skating moves he/she can do, no matter how sloppy the execution in order to get a great PCS. Let's see if Zagitova's choreographies are any different next season. I still think she has room to grow and I would like to see her doing different styles. Ballet is not for her at this point. It would be quite sad if she wouldn't try to improve because she's getting those good marks anyway. I think the judges are giving her and her team the wrong message.
That's really all I have to say on this topic. I want to avoid repeating myself.

During our conversation all you do is explaining my words in your own way, which is the way i didn't say it all. I never said (nor meant to say) that is fine when skaters skates around like crazy. Actually there is no one in the world who skate like crazy. The only thing i'm saying is that skaters are don't oblige to use movements in a way ballet dancers are using them. You think that balletic (elegant) movements are only valid way to perform in figure skating, which is completely untrue and never stated in judging rules (cause balletic postures and carriage are not the synonyms). The only message judges are sending is that you don't need to be balletic dancer to get high enough performance marks.

gotoschool · Mar 22, 2017

Baron Vladimir said:
During our conversation all you do is explaining my words in your own way, which is the way i didn't say it all. I never said (nor meant to say) that is fine when skaters skates around like crazy. Actually there is no one in the world who skate like crazy. The only thing i'm saying is that skaters are don't oblige to use movements in a way ballet dancers are using them. You think that balletic (elegant) movements are only valid way to perform in figure skating, which is completely untrue and never stated in judging rules (cause balletic postures and carriage are not the synonyms). The only message judges are sending is that you don't need to be balletic dancer to get high enough performance marks.

I actually got more of a sense of ballet out of Alina's skating than Marin Honda's. Though both have qualities that remind me of it. Alina does more so, especially in the long when she did the cross grab Biellmann spiral holding here left leg with her right hand with a lovely flair of the right arm. Then, I also think Alina's jumps are more balletic with the the beautiful rippon tano, greater height, more aesthetically pleasing air position and wonderful flair and extension of arms and legs on exit. I understand Alina's posture could be a bit better at times, though it is often quite nice, but Marin doesn't always have really good posture either like when she lands jumps with bent legs. I also get more dynamics out of Alina's performance with more of a climatic, acrobatic ending with her jumps matching the crescendo and quickening tempo of the music.

Baron Vladimir · Mar 23, 2017

gotoschool said:
I actually got more of a sense of ballet out of Alina's skating than Marin Honda's. Though both have qualities that remind me of it. Alina does more so, especially in the long when she did the cross grab Biellmann spiral holding here left leg with her right hand with a lovely flair of the right arm. Then, I also think Alina's jumps are more balletic with the the beautiful rippon tano, greater height, more aesthetically pleasing air position and wonderful flair and extension of arms and legs on exit. I understand Alina's posture could be a bit better at times, though it is often quite nice, but Marin doesn't always have really good posture either like when she lands jumps with bent legs. I also get more dynamics out of Alina's performance with more of a climatic, acrobatic ending which I associate more with ballet.

That was also one of my point. What is aesthetically pleasing is more subjective opinion than objective fact. And new PCS is disagned to mark more objective things, and avoid subjectivity whenever is that possible. Saying that someone should have less points in PCS because you don't observe his/her posture as aesthetically pleasing is just a subjective opinion on a skater, not a valid argument about score of that exact skater.
E: Valid arguments can be for example when saying that skater did nothing between jumps, not using every part of the body or not projecting/emote/act while skating etc etc, surely is not most of the things some people stated here complaining about Zagitova 'high score'.

2017 Jr Worlds Ladies SP

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