2017 Jr Worlds Ladies FS

jaylee said:

Hmm. How did Kaori Sakamoto go from getting an "e" on her obvious flutz at the JGPF to getting no call whatsoever on an equally obvious flutz in the FS here? Her flip also has some weird edge channeling thing going on.

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I know, right? I've been praising her jumps all season long and absolutely love her flows in and out of jumps, but a huge, beautiful flutz is still a flutz.

This and That... nitpicking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MaU1h_oUH4

begin said:

That's just....awful.

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It's not.

This is a coach that watch thousands of these kids every year, she can't keep all of them so it has to be a rule on how they keeps those skaters.

FlattFan said:

If they judge both girls objectively, Alina wins by a slim margin. Her PCS 4-5 points lower than Marin and TES 5-6 points higher.
Alina already got the TES down. If she gets the right programs, and work on her posture, she's unbeatable for me. I saw Don Quixote ballet twice in the last 4 years, and when I watch this girl, I'm annoyed. If you toss her into the ballet, she'd look like Gollum with her posture. She just doesn't finish her move. Why oh why.
Marin wins in PCS, but not to the margin she deserves. What a shame about judging. I don't know how she can improve on TES to compete with Alina unless she has a quad or a 3A. I think she's perfect as is. Too bad there's a really talented girl with strong political backing competing against her.

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On the other hand it's a shame that Alina won on the TES only by a 5 points margin cause both her SP and her LP are WAAAY more difficult than Marin's programs. This is at least a 10 points difference, not a 5 point difference.

Attempting all the jumps in the 2nd half of a free skate is something no other ladies has ever done before, with the 3ltz-3lo (again something very rare to see in ladies figure skating) and all those rippons... even without the choreo sequence Alina's FS is already the program with the highest BV in Ladies figure skating.

jaylee said:

Hmm. How did Kaori Sakamoto go from getting an "e" on her obvious flutz at the JGPF to getting no call whatsoever on an equally obvious flutz in the FS here? Her flip also has some weird edge channeling thing going on.

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gourry said:

I know, right? I've been praising her jumps all season long and absolutely love her flows in and out of jumps, but a huge, beautiful flutz is still a flutz.

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Well, that's Shin Amano for ya. :cool14:
(If it were Mao Asada flutzing, Mr. Amano would have no problem calling it e)
(Okay, I know, I know... He wasn't even the tech controller, just the assistant tech specialist. I just can't resist. Sorry. )

Tolstoj said:

It's not.

This is a coach that watch thousands of these kids every year, she can't keep all of them so it has to be a rule on how they keeps those skaters.

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If that understanding has been established beforehand then sure.

I guess that explains Eteri's coaching success. Getting to handpick the best girls out of a pool of thousands is quite an advantage.

begin said:

If that understanding has been established beforehand then sure.

I guess that explains Eteri's coaching success. Getting to handpick the best girls out of a pool of thousands is quite an advantage.

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First of all this is what's happening in Russia and Japan, it's not just an Eteri thing: figure skating is much more popular in those countries, even Mie Hamada picks her favourites from a poll of hundreds or thousands.

Then yes that could be an advantage but it's way more challenging than coaching just one or two skaters:

- First coaches and parents sends you a kids based on your successes but Eteri started this from scratch: 10 years ago she was alone against CSKA, Russia's first choice in figure skating.

- Second, when you have the reputation, then you have to manage a very large group of skaters and that means less time to spend with each skater.

- Third, competition means pressure. Look at Moris Kvitelashvili, when he was competing for Russia he had never skated well internationally and everyone thought it was because the lack of talent but now he's competing for Georgia and at the Europeans he was a jumping machine.

Tolstoj said:

First of all this is what's happening in Russia and Japan, it's not just an Eteri thing: figure skating is much more popular in those countries, even Mie Hamada picks her favourites from a poll of hundreds or thousands.

Then yes that could be an advantage but it's way more challenging than coaching just one or two skaters:

- First coaches and parents sends you a kids based on your successes but Eteri started this from scratch: 10 years ago she was alone against CSKA, Russia's first choice in figure skating.

- Second, when you have the reputation, then you have to manage a very large group of skaters and that means less time to spend with each skater.

- Third, competition means pressure. Look at Moris Kvitelashvili, when he was competing for Russia he had never skated well internationally and everyone thought it was because the lack of talent but now he's competing for Georgia and at the Europeans he was a jumping machine.

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I'm not saying Eteri isn't great at what she does. But all the things you listed are the experiences every major coach--most of whom don't have an extraordinary resource of their ideal skaters (on top of the federation's backing). And to my understanding the situation in Japan isn't quite so streamlined. I haven't heard of Hamada being so favored that she has her pick out of 'hundreds or thousands'.

The point is that I don't believe in a system where a talent like Polina is considered a waste of time bc she's grown tall or suffered injuries. Call it an impasse if you disagree; we ought not to derail this thread with this discussion.

begin said:

I'm not saying Eteri isn't great at what she does. But all the things you listed are the experiences every major coach--most of whom don't have an extraordinary resource of their ideal skaters (on top of the federation's backing).

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Yes and no because competing against CSKA in Moscow it's literally you against the system.

Also CSKA is backed by the federation (actually it's not that simple, Rosneft is the owner, and that company is mostly owned by the government), while Sambo70 (the club where Eteri is working) as far as i know, is private.

And to my understanding the situation in Japan isn't quite so streamlined. I haven't heard of Hamada being so favored that she has her pick out of 'hundreds or thousands'.

The point is that I don't believe in a system where a talent like Polina is considered a waste of time bc she's grown tall or suffered injuries. Call it an impasse if you disagree; we ought not to derail this thread with this discussion.

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But this is how coaching in japan works (same as Russia), i remember many US coaches saying this at TSL: Japan and Russia have this system where you have to survive to move on and coaches does have so many unpolished kids to work with while in US there aren't as many potential skaters and the federation thinks that everyone should succeed; i don't know if Hamada is the exception, but i doubt it.

Regarding Polina, i think her bad outing at JW is due to her injuries rather than lack of interest from her coach, actually she was with her this season at JGP Russia and Russian Nationals Jr.

Polina is still an amazing skater, i understand that a good placement at JW is almost required to be considered a top contender at seniors right from the start, but can she stays another year at juniors?

Tolstoj said:

Polina is still an amazing skater, i understand that a good placement at JW is almost required to be considered a top contender at seniors right from the start, but can she stays another year at juniors?

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She sure can, but there's no point. She already won everything on JGP, her SB scores guarantee her two senior GPs and she can go back to Junior Nationals if she doesn't make senior team and try to make it to Junior Worlds just like Petrov did. And I believe one bad competition means nothing if we talk about such a talent she is. If she comes back strong next season, she will have all the chances to make an Olympic team and no one will remember her place at JW.

As for Eteri, I think it's worth mentioning that she doesn't just pick a star from 'hundreds or thousands', it amazes me how good she is in recognizing the talent and helping it to blossom. Last year I didn't really understand why she took Alina: the girl was 13, already junior eligible but didn't even make it to JGP, was inconsistent and unpolished. Or Panenkova, who didn't even make it to Junior Nationals last season. And look at them now.

Lucky Star said:

As for Eteri, I think it's worth mentioning that she doesn't just pick a star from 'hundreds or thousands', it amazes me how good she is in recognizing the talent and helping it to blossom. Last year I didn't really understand why she took Alina: the girl was 13, already junior eligible but didn't even make it to JGP, was inconsistent and unpolished. Or Panenkova, who didn't even make it to Junior Nationals last season. And look at them now.

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yes! this is the most impressive part. How does she do it?
And look at Alexandra Trusova who is even more impressive than Panenkova.

Can anyone help & provide link to Viveca Lindfors LP from Junior Worlds? It could be from that Russian forum on which there were videos from competitions, but I can't recall which forum / website that was. I can't find it anywhere on youtube and I missed watching it live.