2017 Worlds Preview: Ice Dance | Page 9 | Golden Skate

2017 Worlds Preview: Ice Dance

Who will earn the title?

  • Maia and Alex Shibutani

    Votes: 24 7.9%
  • Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir

    Votes: 214 70.4%
  • Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Cizeron

    Votes: 50 16.4%
  • Madison Chock and Evan Bates

    Votes: 8 2.6%
  • Ekaterina Bobrova and Dmitri Soloviev

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Anna Cappellini and Luca Lanotte

    Votes: 3 1.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 1.0%

  • Total voters
    304
  • Poll closed .

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
What?:laugh: They only found Shibs as example?:laugh: I was curious why their score go up to Virtue/Moir level suddenly. That must be why since ISU judges thinks If ISU made video it must be good. :laugh: I remembered 2011, ISU tried to explain their judges ''clean skating'' is not mean ''quality skating'' after Shibs bronze medal scandal. :laugh: After all those things they begin 2012 where they belong.

Shibs have poor ice covarage than their rivals. I'm not counting Virtue/Moir and Papadakis/Cizeron as their rivals of course. Teams like Bobrova/Soloviev, Weaver/Poje have better ice covarage, also have more speed. Other teams use more variation of speed which shows their skating skills better. Shiutanis shallow edges and curveless turns often results as level2 If there is not American/Canadian specialist on the panel. After 4CC, I don't think they will get level4s like candy from canadian specialists anymore. Who is going to be in technical panel for Worlds by the way?

The iSU video was short and made several years ago but did not include any examples of quality edgework other than the Shibs, which does not necessarily mean that they are the ONLY team to exhibit quality edgework. Your opinion is just that, not fact. No team exhibits total perfection every time they compete, which is often why tech scores can vary from competition to competition. So if a team gets a Level 2 in one event, that does not mean that they can't get a Level 4 in another. You can't always blame the technical score on bias.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
And you are completely ignoring that ice dance evaluates two people, not just one. At the mentioned lifts, Scott is doing something difficult and Tessa is doing something difficult. Guillaume is doing something difficult and the only one who is just sitting in there like a sack of whatever, is Gabriella, practically she is taking a nap above Guillaume.

Talk about being disrespectful...
We cannot to one hundreds of what they do, why are you saying such (false) things ? As an Ice Dance fan, I really don't understand this type of comment...

That thread is about who we thinks is gonna win, not trashing the Shibs for "flat skating" or P/C for their "lifts that are so easy". Come on guys :noshake:
 

KMK0902

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I knew someone would post that. It's not close to what Guillaume does. Scott's position isn't held as long and isn't as secure, the weight is evenly balanced with the arms both counterbalanced by the other skater (as compared to Guillaume having the other skater on one side of his body AND putting his free arm in an off-balance position at the same time), and it isn't transitioned into a knee slide.

This is so ridicules it's funny :rofl: I'm not sure what Scott and Tessa ever did do you BoP, well I do know, they decided to continue to skate and while doing so they are showing the world weaknesses some of the other teams have that have been ignored for a few years.......

Good luck to ALL teams in Helsinki!! May they ALL skate to their full potential!!
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
So if a team gets a Level 2 in one event, that does not mean that they can't get a Level 4 in another. You can't always blame the technical score on bias.

Even in the single skating technical specialist makes huge difference. If I see Amano's name I can guess how TES going to effect competition. And it was just single skating. Don't be so naive. This eyes saw Weaver/Poje skating all season under the Canadian specialists, at least 5 ISU competition back to back. Think about it. :noshake:
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I'm not sure what Scott and Tessa ever did do you BoP

Why do people always throw out really stupid statements like this?

I am objectively assessing these elements. That's what you are supposed to do. Someone is always going to be better than someone else at something. I find P/C to be better than V/M in this area. I can see Scott's blades and lower body wavering and the position is not as impressive or held as long as Guillaume's to begin with, nor transitioned out of so exquisitely. Overall I find V/M to just be less capable than they used to be these days, which isn't to say they can't win a competition, but just that they don't feel as razor-sharp anymore. Scott's knee-bend in particular seems much clunkier than it used to be and as a whole they don't seem to have the same flexibility or rapidity as before.
 

KMK0902

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Why do people always throw out really stupid statements like this?

I am objectively assessing these elements. That's what you are supposed to do. Someone is always going to be better than someone else at something. I find P/C to be better than V/M in this area. I can see Scott's blades and lower body wavering and the position is not as impressive or held as long as Guillaume's to begin with, nor transitioned out of so exquisitely. Overall I find V/M to just be less capable than they used to be these days, which isn't to say they can't win a competition, but just that they don't feel as razor-sharp anymore. Scott's knee-bend in particular seems much clunkier than it used to be and as a whole they don't seem to have the same flexibility or rapidity as before.

:rofl::laugh2:

*sigh* why is it starting to feel like V/M vs. D/W all over again.

I know, and I'm truly sorry ancientpeas, for my part in this stupid, stupid argugement...... This was my last post on the topic :)
 

nevergonnadance

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
...but nobody said that.

It's simply a FACT that there are technical moves, such as "the goose", that V/M can not do anymore. Their technical capability is lower now than it used to be. On the other hand, P/C are capable of more right now. Cizeron in particular. P/C have yet to skate their best this season and their programs are also not the best this season (the SD in particular). Yet, it remains that they are the best of the field if they do deliver to their full potential.

No, they are far from even being the second best of the field. Sloppy free feet, hit and miss unison, much less power.

You don't know anything for a fact about VM's technical capability, as to whether they can do the Goose or any other move.The only FACT you have about it is the current content of their current programs and that is it. You have no idea if they can do the Goose or not - as if that represented the ne plus ultra of difficulty. For them, ultimately, it stopped being challenging, while remaining a fan favorite, or it wouldn't have been in their show programs for years. The thing that we don't see in show programs is often footwork because that's the most difficult. What the Goose required they still have - Scott's perfect distribution of weight between his blades and evenly weighted edges in deep plie, and Tessa's ability to control her core while balanced on his thigh.

IMO the ISU is very fond of leveling the playing field when it comes to assigning level of difficulty - some of what constitutes L4 makes me roll my eyes. But lowering the bar (IMO) allows more teams to be competitive. VM always used to push to do truly high level difficulty, and now they're going along with the game (IMO, which is at least better than asserting something as fact when I have no idea).

In the past, I would argue they were discouraged from pushing it. They are playing the game now, the right training center, not "showing up" other teams on the envelope pushing spectrum, and using straight up skating skills to execute a lot of the same content everybody else is executing. You don't know that that is not strategic. They are certainly being rewarded for going along instead of pushing. Rightly so, but I don't think it has anything whatseover to do with what they're capable of.

You aren't "objectively" weighing anything. I think you'd have to know more about skating to do so.
 
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nevergonnadance

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Doing it in that easier position for a couple seconds is not the same. It's not really possible to say if P/C benefited more in comparison considering their development in the past several years. With what we DO still have in the dances, however, I notice many instances of P/C being able to hit better positions and transitions between positions better.

No they don't hit "better positions". If there is ever unison between them it's a miracle, and they skate much further apart from each other than VM, particularly when changing direction or changing position. Their transitions are where they tend to "cheat" rather than skate - a small lift into the direction change, or pulling her, or doing something other than skating into it. What is a "better position"? in your opinion? What about their skates, their edges?
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
No, they are far from even being the second best of the field. Sloppy free feet, hit and miss unison, much less power.

You don't know anything for a fact about VM's technical capability, as to whether they can do the Goose or any other move.The only FACT you have about it is the current content of their current programs and that is it. You have no idea if they can do the Goose or not - as if that represented the ne plus ultra of difficulty. For them, ultimately, it stopped being challenging, while remaining a fan favorite, or it wouldn't have been in their show programs for years. The thing that we don't see in show programs is often footwork because that's the most difficult. What the Goose required they still have - Scott's perfect distribution of weight between his blades and evenly weighted edges in deep plie, and Tessa's ability to control her core while balanced on his thigh.

IMO the ISU is very fond of leveling the playing field when it comes to assigning level of difficulty - some of what constitutes L4 makes me roll my eyes. VM always used to push to do truly high level difficulty, and now they're going along with the game (IMO, which is at least better than asserting something as fact when I have no idea).

In the past, I would argue they were discouraged from pushing it. They are playing the game now, the right training center, not "showing up" other teams on the envelope pushing spectrum, and using straight up skating skills to execute a lot of the same content everybody else is executing. You don't know that that is not strategic. They are certainly being rewarded for going along instead of pushing. Rightly so, but I don't think it has anything whatseover to do with what they're capable of.

You aren't "objectively" weighing anything. I think you'd have to know more about skating to do so.

I agree with you. Sometimes Blades of Passion tries too hard to sell in fact very subjective statements or present his knowledge as objectives that makes me disappointed. But I like reading his posts either way.
 

nevergonnadance

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
I agree with you. Sometimes Blades of Passion tries too hard to sell in fact very subjective statements or present his knowledge as objectives that makes me disappointed. But I like reading his posts either way.


:) I should chill out and not take the "It's a fact!" so seriously. But still, I am always amazed at generalizations very general remarks that don't cite to a specific example of either skating technique or a place where the skater is demonstrating the unmentioned technique (or deficiency), remarks that contain confusing assumptions like "The Goose" is some amazing technical feat. It was for 2010, but it's due to VM's particular strengths - his center of balance and steady, evenly weighted blades, and her matchless ability to control herself in space. However, athletically speaking, it's probably something they can still do when they're middle-aged. I was also taken aback by the remark about transitions and positions, since P/C do employ a lot of familiar tricks for direction changes and transitions.
 

jersey1302

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Country
Canada
Ya honestly I think its going to be a 7-10 total point victory for Virtue/Moire after both dances. I think 2nd through 5th is VERY close though. The other two Canadian teams can't be counted out, Obviously the Shibs and P/C are favoured to win the next two medals however if there are mistakes watch for the other Canadian and American teams to pounce.
 

nocturnalis

Medalist
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
I find it funny that BoP things the goose is a technical achievement when they probably performed it for 2 years because it was easier for Tessa's shins. Likewise, I do agree with the poster above in that I like BoP's commentary, but it's hardly objective.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
You don't know anything for a fact about VM's technical capability.

I suppose nobody knows "100% for sure" except the skater themself, but I do know what the coaches have said they can't do anymore (some of that circa their 2014 condition, but then it's difficult to believe their bodies would be better than ever, 3 years older in the first season coming back). So going by that, there are factually lifts and such that they can NOT do anymore, which they could do when they are younger. Take it as you will, but I can see it in their present condition regardless. As great as they may be, there are definitely aspects of their competitive skating that are not the best of the field.

No they don't hit "better positions".

Sorry, but you're either blind or not paying attention if you can't see what P/C (particularly Guillaume as compared to Scott) are able to do better than V/M. I will again point you to the upside-down camel positions, which V/M's team have them attempting to copy from P/C. Tessa's position is nowhere near as good as Gabriella's, nor do V/M achieve the same speed and ease of transitioning in that element.
 

GF2445

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Quota Predictions

3 Spots
CAN
USA
=6

2 Spots
FRA
RUS
ITA
=6

1 Spot
ISR
UKR
DEN
CHN
TUR
POL
GER
=7

TOTAL 19
 
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