Hamm and Yang

Salt Lake City was not enough, we now have Athens with controversy. Will they issue duplicate golds?

I feel for both of these guys. Not easy to lose a gold medal and not easy to give one up. From what I understand it had to do with evaluating the program before they started on parallel bars. There was agreement with those in charge of that but if Yang had had the evaluation correct he could have won over all gold.

Can't a computer decide on what to give the base score?

This is going to perk up the figure skating coaches. Watch!!

Joe

I think under the circumstances, the only fair thing to do would be to give Yang a gold medal too.........however, they may have waited too long to protest. In football, you have to make the protest immediately if you think there's been a judgement call. I wonder if this will mean a notation will be made next to Paul Hamm's name on the record books? 42

The Koreans are now claiming they did question the value of the routine prior to the routine, although this didn't come up until now. I would be fine with two golds as I believe Paul shouldn't have to give up his for a mistake he didn't make; However, it does seem like the Korean team waited too long for the protest. I think its smart of Paul not to comment and also to avoid the media until all the facts are in.

It seems to me they should have done more than question the start value. If it's incorrect, they should have approached the supervisor before they started the routine. By completing the routine, it makes it sound as if they were fine with it. Maybe they thought Yang was so far ahead, he didn't need the extra "tenth"... :until it was too late....sheesh: 42

Show - I think you have it. I'm not that clear on gymnastics scoring but if they are having a pre-evaluation score before the event, then that is the time to protest. If this is true then I would not give it to Yang although I can feel his pain, but his coach should have complained at the correct time.

Is this going to happen in figure skating?

Joe

This is why I think we should not put so much emphasis on gold medals earned in judged sports. In a judged sport, the medal goes to the person who gets the higest marks from that particular panel. Brian Boitano or Brian Orser? Who skated the best? Not only will we never know, we will never even have an objective way of debating the question.

What Boitano did win, without question, was the favor of five of the judges on the panel, whereas Orser only won the support of four. That is his victory. But did he skate better?

Sarah Hughes, bless her heart, is the reigning Olympic champion from 2002 to 2006. Is she to be regarded as the best skater in the world for that period? She was the best (so said five judges out of nine) on that day. But two days before, Sarah was only the fourth best skater in the world.

Well, good for her, and good for Paul.

Here is an article from AOL news that gives most of the current details. Three judges were suspended for "technical mistakes," but the rules say they can't change the result. As I think about the vagaries of CoP scoring in ice skating, it seems almost a certainty that some sort of problem of this kind will come up in Torino.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/sports/article.adp?id=20040821071609990004

Mathman

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/22/sports/olympics/22roberts.html

Interesting commentary by Selena Roberts of the Times, in which she compares the SLC pairs competition to the current gymnastics mistake in mathematics

show 42 said:

It seems to me they should have done more than question the start value. If it's incorrect, they should have approached the supervisor before they started the routine. By completing the routine, it makes it sound as if they were fine with it. Maybe they thought Yang was so far ahead, he didn't need the extra "tenth"... :until it was too late....sheesh: 42

Click to expand...

I also thought that both the Korean competitors got sloppy towards the end. I admit I don't know as much about gymnastics as I do skating, but they just didn't look as sharp at the end. It made me think that they felt they were so far ahead that it didn't matter anymore. I would like to think the best of athletes, but they let some points go. Yang probably could have done a better job and still beat Hamm even with the 9.9 start value.

For those who watch gymnastics regularly, have the Koreans averaged a higher score in prior competitions than the ones they got at the Olympics? Or were they perhaps on one of their weaker rotations?

According to an article at the following link, the Koreans made several efforts during the event to protest the scoring, but were given a rather lengthy bureaucratic run-around:

http://www.intlgymnast.com/events/2004/olympics/news_korea.html

(The link was posted at the ESPN board at http://forums.espn.go.com/espn/message?byThread=false&messageID=1347314&start=0&num=51).

If what they're saying is true, the challenge should have been dealt with then.

Korea has never been a huge powerhouse as far as gymnastics goes IIRC. Their team was fourth overall here (they were only seventh in qualifying though) and could have been higher but they didn't quite have the depth to get all the good scores. Young qualified second in the AA right behind Paul Hamm but in the qualififying round, he only got a 9.587 on PBars so his other scores must have been a bit better. I couldn't find his score for the team finals though to see what he got there to compare them. And as far as I could tell on the site I was just at, he didn't qualify for any EFs either with his scores so they must have been solid but nothing remarkable other than his total AA score. He was consistant but not overly strong on one event or another. Personally, he got a bit of a gift for his Pbars routine because I could even see a few form breaks in there and I can't think of one routine where either Korean guy stuck their landings cold. Young botched his HB routine a bit and suffered there with a 9.4 something too. In the end, I believe the right man won the gold medal for their overall night of gymnastics. Paul could have let that fall totally disrupt his performances and he could have just given up but he didn't, he came back strong and hit two more awesome performances. That shows a champion's determination and heart. Just MO though.

Personally, ITA that this whole thing sucks. I don't think that a second gold medal would solve anything though (while I liked the fact that SLC tried to make things better by giving the second gold to Jamie & David, who didn't do anything wrong IMO just like Paul or Young, that came about from actual impropriety, not by someone's human error, so its slightly different and in the end, it did just open up a can of worms that isn't going back so easily) and that may not be a smart thing to do. While the protest sounds valid, it really does sound like they didn't protest at the right time (or at least, vehemently enough if they actually did do something during the competition which I have my doubts about actually because it would have been noticable to others in the arena and I've not heard anything from ANYONE about something like that regardless of country) which kinda means they are out of luck. Its too bad too because Paul would have been happy with whatever medal he got, he thought he was working towards a bronze, maybe silver, so this whole thing could have been avoided had someone noticed the error a heck of a lot sooner. It could have been fixed back then. I agree with the football analogy too. I don't think there are any winners in this although I for sure am not going to forget Paul's performances that night! This mess doesn't take away the fact that he competed VERY well that night (aside from vault) and showed a true champion's spirit in how he came back from the vault mistake and didn't let it affect his last two events.

I have used WAY too many big words in this post this late at night, LOL

IMO, if I were Paul Hamm I would insist that the medals be re -awarded using the correct scores. No, it is not his fault that the mistake was made, and yes, he performed like a champion, but Yang was the winner here. If this would have been FS and say Kwan losing to anyone we wopuld NEVER hear the end of this. As for SLC because of the admitted judging irregularities you didn't know who actually won, but in this case we know that Yang was the actual winner. We go on and on here about how the athletes should not have to suffer for poor judging and here is a chance where things can actually be made right. Yang would actually recieve the award he won and as for Hamm, being from the U.S. would probably still get a Wheaties box and because we like to see the right thing being done would probably come out of this ala Michelle after Nagano and Keri Strug after Atlanta. His marketability would actually increase I think as it is now it is kind of iffy because in the back of everyone's mind will be Yang. In my eyes doing the right thing is what really defines a champion. We have seen that Paul Hamm is a champion gymnist now it is time for him to show that he is a true OLYMPIC CHAMPION.


Piel

Piel, I am inclined to agree with most of what you say. Giving Yang the gold isn't just switching places between the two men. That would mean the silver medalist would be down-graded to bronze. He may not agree with that at all. If the judges had started with 10.0 as the starting point, might they not have been more critical of what Yang actually performed. I don't remember exactly his routine, but others have said that he had several form breaks, wasn't perfect, and may still have performed close to what he did score. Might a higher score by Yang then have inspired others to tighten up their routines and score better? This has a potential "domino effect" where one performance or "score" effects the others to come? Just a thought..................42

Piel, your post is well stated. I have to wonder, however, does Paul truly have the authority to ask that the medals be reawarded? How short of a leash does USA Gymno keep its athletes on? If he wants to come back for another Olympics, then he may have to tow the party line.

Also, if Yang's SV is reevaluated, then another may also ask that his/her SV be reviewed. True, they will be outside the window of opportunity provided by the rules. However, if the scandal becomes huge, then FIG may be forced to review all SV to maintain credibility.

The worst part to me is that the Koreans are claiming that they attempted to use the system in place for grievances, but were allegedly rebuffed. I hope that is not true.

It is difficult all the way around. If I were Paul I would want it to be crystal clear that I only wanted to be awarded for what I actually won. I thought that it had been determined that the routine Yang turned if given the correct start value would have given him enough points to beat Hamm. On the bright side we have a new wuz robbed entry for THAT thread

The worst part to me is that the Koreans are claiming that they attempted to use the system in place for grievances, but were allegedly rebuffed. I hope that is not true.

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I agree Lynn, if they followed the proper channels in a timely manner, then a second gold medal should be considered........42

Here's a link to an article I just found on MSNBC. USA Gymno does not seem opposed to the awarding of a second OGM at this time.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5784651/

Thanks for the article, Lynn..........if that happens, will they bump up the fourth place finisher to bronze.........seems fair......42

We all agree that there was no fix and no blame should go to the athletes. I'm all for Hamm offering his gold medal to Yang. That would be the gentleman thing to do. I'm not worried about Wheaties boxes at all and I don't think Paul is either.. That Samoan American diver never got a wheaties box.

However, Show pointed out that if they had agreed that his routine was a 10, would the judges have given him the same scoring as they did for the lower SV? This is an unanswerable question. It's just one of those many 'if only' hypothetical statements we see so much of in figure skating.

And what about those three blokes who okd the SV? What was the point in firing them. None of them seemed to be favoring any athlete. And it didn't resolve anything.

Can anyone tell me if the Evaluation of a routine is posted before the competition or before the athlete begins his actual program? which brings up the question of whether the Korean officials objected to this before Yang executed his program. The rumor I read was that the Korean officials didn't object before the competition began because it seemed at the time that Yang was a shoo-in. I would like to see some proof that they objected before the competition began.

If indeed it can be shown that the Koreans objected before the competition, then my first paragraph above is what I would like to see.

Joe

Not that one has anytrhing to do with the other, but wasn't it the start value on this same apparatus that was changed for the two American guys prior to the team competition?

Piel, Blaine Wilson and one other American (Jason Gastson?) had to change their high bar routines because a Japanese official informed them that they would receive a lower SV than they had at 2003 Worlds for the same routines. Also, the commentator thought that the SV of for Brett McClure was too low on the high bar. He was a medal contender in the AA until that event.

Joe, my understanding (or misunderstanding ) of gymno scoring is that there are two panels of judges. One panel determines the SV and the other panel is only looking for deductions. This should mean that if the panel changes the SV, then the deductions should not be affected. It also raises the question of whether or not judges decisions concerning deductions are affected by the SV, even if they did not determine what it is. I hope that made sense.