Chinese Artistry | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Chinese Artistry

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
hockeyfan228 said:
They've only been working with Lee Ann Miller for a year, were coached in a vacuum by Tong for a while, and lost a lot of practice time due to the SARS outbreak.

I really like Zhang/Zhang, because they look very comfortable together on the ice. I think they could surpass Pang and Tong with better choreography, but I don't think they'll be allowed it anytime soon, because it would affect the current pecking order.
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Both Pan/Tong and Zhang/Zhang use Zuline as their choreographer this season, and I think this is the first time the froeign choreogrpher dose chore for both team. Both of them will have new LP, while keep their old SP, the latest report from chinese disscussion board.
 

Fairy

Spectator
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Well,I know the discussion began to turn to S/Z,P/T,Z/Z,ect.But I have to say something about Chinese gymnasts.Actually,the Chinese girls' floor exercises aren't choreographed by CHINESE THEMSELVES,they are choreographed by a choreographer named Pop who also choreographed Ponor's floor exercises(I think a lot of people here know Ponor ,huh?)

PS:the music for S/Z next season isn't a piece of CHINESE MUSIC,it's composed by a JAPANESE musician,Kitaro.
 

icer

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
The book about the pairs competition in Salt Lake City, The Second Mark, has some really interesting information about the history of pairs skating in China. I strongly recommend it. It talks about how Shen and Zhou progressed through the intl figure skating ranks- initially focusing on huge technical skills in part because they believed they could never get the artistic scores from the international judges- they could gain respect and recognition only by doing skills that were bigger and riskier than anyone else. It talks about their transition from working with only Chinese choreographers to working with Western Choreographers, and their struggle to incorporate Western ideas of artistry and expression into their programs.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
mzheng said:
Both Pan/Tong and Zhang/Zhang use Zuline as their choreographer this season, and I think this is the first time the froeign choreogrpher dose chore for both team. Both of them will have new LP, while keep their old SP, the latest report from chinese disscussion board.
According to Pang and Tong's bio on the ISU website, Yao Bin and Lee Ann Miller were P/T's choreographers last season. Will this be the fourth year in a row that P/T use their SP?

That's great news about Zhulin working with Z/Z. I had only heard that SZ was working with P/T.
 

Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
I think Pang and Tong look better on TV than in person. At Dortmund, they looked like they were cutting the rink short and rushing quite a bit, which, to me, looked a bit more frenzied than fast. However, they're still quite young and have enormous potential. They've only been working with Lee Ann Miller for a year, were coached in a vacuum by Tong for a while, and lost a lot of practice time due to the SARS outbreak.

I really like Zhang/Zhang, because they look very comfortable together on the ice. I think they could surpass Pang and Tong with better choreography, but I don't think they'll be allowed it anytime soon, because it would affect the current pecking order.

With Totmianina/Marinin in the mix, and Obertas/Slavnov as an up-and-coming contender, I don't see a sweep for China in Turin.

Actually I saw Pang & Tong skate live in the 2002 Olympics and they were very good there. I had not liked them on TV at all.

T&M would be a factor in Torino. However, I don't see Obertas & Slavnov being a factor unless Slavnov corrects his sloppy posture. He looks like a junior level skater. It is particularly painful to look at him because Yulia is such a beautiful skater.

For any country to sweep, a lot of things have to happen. I find it offensive that people are even talking about a Chinese sweep in 2006 when the reigning world champions are from Russia. Even when USSR/Russia was at the very top in the 1980's and 90's they never swept the podium. Their best finish was 1-2-4, when others were not even serious contenders. There is always a finite probability that the Chinese could sweep but a lot of things will have to go wrong for all the Russian pairs and the top Canadian and US pairs (and I have not even considered European pairs like Zagorska-Siudek who I expect to make big improvements).
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
icer said:
The book about the pairs competition in Salt Lake City, The Second Mark, has some really interesting information about the history of pairs skating in China. I strongly recommend it. It talks about how Shen and Zhou progressed through the intl figure skating ranks- initially focusing on huge technical skills in part because they believed they could never get the artistic scores from the international judges- they could gain respect and recognition only by doing skills that were bigger and riskier than anyone else. It talks about their transition from working with only Chinese choreographers to working with Western Choreographers, and their struggle to incorporate Western ideas of artistry and expression into their programs.

I've read a lot review of the book, but after all it was written by a western jurnalist. IMO, in order to truly understand what Shen/Zhao and their coach been through and thought, I heard there is a book written by BinYao in chinese, I believe that book would truely reflected what they really thought.

I've been reading in chinese board there were a lot interview with Shen/Zhao, one thing they said as a chinese pair in order to break into the rank in a traditional western/european sport you have to be header and shoulder better your western competetor. Compare with artistry impression, the big tricks have to be judged much objective, that's why they went for those skill first. Lu Chen basically said the similar things in one of her interview. LuChen is now back in china, she's openning a FS school there.
 
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Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
I believe the artistry came naturally to Chen Lu. She was very consistent with the triple jumps but they were never big. I see her more as an exception than a rule.

I suspect Pang & Tong are somewhat like her. Their artistry has not really been worked on because the Chinese emphasize only the high throws and high twists. They don't have the polish of S&Z or the charisma of Z&Z (particularly the lady Zhang), but artistry is more natural to them. I watched them live in SLC and I was impressed with that performance. On TV I don't actually like them. Also Z&Z are more exciting live (not artistic, however). Also I don't see S&Z as 'beautiful' or artistic. They are an athletic pair that has carved a nitch.
 

GoldenSwan

Spectator
Joined
Jun 1, 2004
Vash01 said:
T&M would be a factor in Torino. However, I don't see Obertas & Slavnov being a factor unless Slavnov corrects his sloppy posture. He looks like a junior level skater. It is particularly painful to look at him because Yulia is such a beautiful skater.
Judges don't care about posture that much.. Pang's posture is still awful but it didn't hold back Pang/Tong who at last year's worlds won bronze and got some votes for silver.
 
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Vash01

Medalist
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
That's exactly my concern. These days they are not paying attention to the finer points of skating. IIRC posture is/was one of the presentation criteria. I will not be surprised if they threw it out the window while creating the COP. That should help particularly the Chinese. Slavnov's posture is particularly painful to watch because Yulia is so beautiful. Actually pet-Tik have a similar problem. Alexei has a poor posture. In addition to the posture though, Slavnov still looks like a junior level skater. May be by next worlds he will improve. I don't expect to see the posture improve though. I think it must be hard to correct it once one is past a certain age (or Tim Goebel would have hope).
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Vash01 said:
That's exactly my concern. These days they are not paying attention to the finer points of skating. IIRC posture is/was one of the presentation criteria. I will not be surprised if they threw it out the window while creating the COP. That should help particularly the Chinese. Slavnov's posture is particularly painful to watch because Yulia is so beautiful. Actually pet-Tik have a similar problem. Alexei has a poor posture.
I think the same is true of Siudek and Archetto. I think Marinin has the best posture among the men in the top teams.

I don't think changing posture is a hopeless task, though, particularly when the man isn't so much taller than the women that he hunches over. (Or with Moskvina cracking the whip.) Zhang looked so much better in the exhibition in Dortmund that I thought I was looking at a different skater than the one with his butt in the air in his camel position in the LP pairs spin. Bluesy music seems to suit him well.
 

bleuchick

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Joesitz said:
I don't think it took years for S&Z to get artistry. They already had artistry with the Chinese choreographers. It wasn't until Leann Miller Europeanzied them that the European judges began to notice them. It was a 'you must conform to our standards'. 'we don't recognize your cultural'. Oh, the sport is so subjectively biased.

Joe


ITA...but that is figure skating.

and I wonder why it always the same music year after year...
 
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