2017-18 State of Russian Ladies skating

silverfoxes said:

But I would say that he has become rather too stuck in his ways and never really adapted to the COP era. I don't think he cares enough about packaging and artistry, and he has no problem stripping away all of a choreographer's touches until there is almost nothing left. I really do think Liza is limited by his approach. Maybe she would never have become the most artistic skater, but the right coach would help her develop the potential she had instead of staying in her comfort zone forever. I just don't see her leaving him.

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It will be interesting to see what becomes of Liza N., assuming she doesn't get totally swallowed up in the mass of Russian youngsters. She has excellent performance skills already.

I admire Liza T. and Mishin's relationship, but after 2-3 years of stagnation/going backwards, skaters should make a change. If the change doesn't work out, at least you tried (this is how I feel about Gracie leaving Frank). Getting an entirely new perspective on her skating and training could refresh her and help her mental game, too.

Having multiple skaters with multiple Olympic and World medals makes someone a legend, IMO, even if maybe they aren't as good at their job as they used to be. Of course Mishin is a legend. So is Moskvina, despite her lack of success in recent years. And Frank Carroll. You're a legend for what you've accomplished in the past, not for what you're doing now, or in recent years. That's the entire point of a legend. Now, are Mishin and Carroll maybe not as good at their jobs as they used to be? Perhaps. Doesn't make them not legends. (I refuse to even suggest that Moskvina may not as great of a coach as she used to be...if she had younger students, we'd see her still coaching major successes!)

Mishin and Carroll.. both of them are old gentlemen.

hippomoomin said:

Back to Liza's future: Is Mishin really a great coach of "legendary" status? I obviously don't know him well enough except that he was the coach of Plushenko and earlier Yagudin. I didn't even know he wasn't a single skater himself. What I do know is that he has produced a limited number of top skaters in recent years, to say the least, and Liza is the most successful one. I wonder if Liza's success is limited to his coaching to some degree, especially packaging. Zijun Li has not made significant change yet though he is a much better choice than her previous ones.

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Zijun's problem mainly lies in herself, not in her different coaches. She was nearly disqualified from the 2017 WC by her Skating Federation for some reason I don't know. I only heard that her training at home before the Worlds was not at all systematic. Lack of internal competitions can only demotivate her, but now the situation has changed. I think Xiangning will have a bigger chance to skate at Pyeongchang.

andromache said:

It will be interesting to see what becomes of Liza N., assuming she doesn't get totally swallowed up in the mass of Russian youngsters. She has excellent performance skills already.

I admire Liza T. and Mishin's relationship, but after 2-3 years of stagnation/going backwards, skaters should make a change. If the change doesn't work out, at least you tried (this is how I feel about Gracie leaving Frank). Getting an entirely new perspective on her skating and training could refresh her and help her mental game, too.

Having multiple skaters with multiple Olympic and World medals makes someone a legend, IMO, even if maybe they aren't as good at their job as they used to be. Of course Mishin is a legend. So is Moskvina, despite her lack of success in recent years. And Frank Carroll. You're a legend for what you've accomplished in the past, not for what you're doing now, or in recent years. That's the entire point of a legend. Now, are Mishin and Carroll maybe not as good at their jobs as they used to be? Perhaps. Doesn't make them not legends. (I refuse to even suggest that Moskvina may not as great of a coach as she used to be...if she had younger students, we'd see her still coaching major successes!)

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Off topic re Tamara Moskvina, but there's Boikova/Kozlovskii, current junior Worlds' pair silver medalists who skate in her group. (Incidentally, both were former Mishin group skaters when they skated singles.)

http://www.goldenskate.com/2017/03/boikova-kozlovskii/

Relevant extract:

The skaters credit their coaching team for their fast progress. Their coach is Artur Minchuk, who competed at the international junior level in pair skating for Russia and even skated with Ksenia Stolbova from 2006 to 2008, but ended his competitive career in 2011. However, the legendary Tamara Moskvina is the head coach of the pair skating training group in St. Petersburg.

“Thanks to the basics, we already got in singles and to the advice and the set up of our pair skating specialists, we were able to put it all together and achieved the result that we got now,” the well-spoken Kozlovskii said.

Working with Moskvina means a lot to the young pair skaters, who consider her to be a “figure skating guru.”

“What can you say about a person who has educated such a number of Olympic Champions?” Kozlovskii asked rhetorically. “That shows that this is not a coincidence or that she was lucky, but it tells about the professionalism of this expert. When you realize that you are working with such a great person whose name is written in the history of figure skating with golden letters, it is a huge experience that we try to use on the ice and maybe even in future life.”


ETA - On topic; I think it would be harder for Liza to leave Mishin as he's been a father figure for her since her own father passed away a few years ago. Similarly to Plush (who was separated from his own father for long periods of time growing up, as his father stayed back to work, while Plush moved to St Petersburg to train with Mishin; first alone for one year, and then being joined by his mother), she has referred to him as a second father. So I think they are probably much closer than is normal for coach/student.

hippomoomin said:

OK, many athletes took meldonium.

Back to Liza's future: Is Mishin really a great coach of "legendary" status? I obviously don't know him well enough except that he was the coach of Plushenko and earlier Yagudin. I didn't even know he wasn't a single skater himself. What I do know is that he has produced a limited number of top skaters in recent years, to say the least, and Liza is the most successful one. I wonder if Liza's success is limited to his coaching to some degree, especially packaging. Zijun Li has not made significant change yet though he is a much better choice than her previous ones.

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Mishin has done more for FS than just coaching, he did a vital research on the bio mechanics of jumping, wrote a few books, developed his own jump technique, some training equipment etc. His camps are hugely popular. Doesn't he go every spring to USA for some annual event I can't remember the name exactly... Here is an extract from one of his interviews, translated on FSU:
https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/in...-mishin-i-consider-myself-a-good-coach.95491/

''Q: And what would you do when you realize that you are done? Sorry.
A: It's quite alright. When Tamara Moskvina's results were less than stellar, I told her, "Tamara, we will always be, no matter what, prominent people, and we will never lose self-respect." When I did not have the results, did I feel bad? Not at all! I wrote another book, I invented new exercises ...

Q: What was the book about?
A: Figure skating, of course. I wrote more about it already than Nikolai Panin, it seems. But I cannot say that I did it better. Time will tell. I have been writing articles and books ever since I started to skate, and my father, who taught biomechanics, gave me the idea that the same physical laws apply to the movement of hard living and nonliving bodies. I have done a lot of research already. And for the last few years, I have been working together with an engineer and inventor Viktor Shapiro, and he had provided the most advanced innovative technical base for all of my ideas. We use devices that are used in submarines, seismic sensors, accelerometers. Everything new has very difficult way into common practice. But, for example, Nikolai Tsiskaridze already has our training apparatus in Vaganova Ballet School. And Andrey Rodionenko, head coach of the Russian national gymnastics team, does too.''

silverfoxes said:

I really do think Liza is limited by his approach. Maybe she would never have become the most artistic skater, but the right coach would help her develop the potential she had instead of staying in her comfort zone forever. I just don't see her leaving him.

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I think Liza’s problem might be also lack of option. I too think changing coaches might help her, no matter how close she and Mishin are and what she has achieved with him. I just looks like she can’t develop any further with him, but even regresses (and I’m not only talking about jumps). Now if you can’t progress any longer with your coach, than it might be time to move. But I don’t know who she could approach – probably she won’t move to Moscow (Andrei Lazukin is her boyfriend and he is coached by Mishin). Rukavitsin has a full group. Pisarenko is a horrific tech coach. There are not so many good coaches on that level in St. Pete. Basically her options are very limited.

I am not sure Russia is as deep as some may say in ladies but right now they do have Evgenia - as long as she has really survived puberty and can deal with the pressure. The other ladies all have major challenges. Alina too junior and not the maturity in her skating or quite enough power and amplitude compared to the other senior ladies. Anna well she could have it all but is a basket case. Liza T seems to have lost her way and triple axel. julia has injuries, puberty and mental issues. Radinova is a great fighter but puberty h as not been kind to her jumps. Leonova seems a lost cause and better days are past. Maria is rather blah. adelina seems to be not in shape and more important too injured. Polina T seems to have never regained her potential or glory. Still compared to the rest of the world they are competitive for sure.

Skater Boy said:

I am not sure Russia is as deep as some may say in ladies but right now they do have Evgenia - as long as she has really survived puberty and can deal with the pressure. The other ladies all have major challenges. Alina too junior and not the maturity in her skating or quite enough power and amplitude compared to the other senior ladies. Anna well she could have it all but is a basket case. Liza T seems to have lost her way and triple axel. julia has injuries, puberty and mental issues. Radinova is a great fighter but puberty h as not been kind to her jumps. Leonova seems a lost cause and better days are past. Maria is rather blah. adelina seems to be not in shape and more important too injured. Polina T seems to have never regained her potential or glory. Still compared to the rest of the world they are competitive for sure.

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What other country has anywhere near that many competitive top ladies in the first place? You can pick literally any skater in the world and find flaws if you just want to be negative. Do you want to talk about the US ladies? LOL. Besides, Russia has many other talented junior girls who are coming up. So if that's not a deep field, what is?

Besides, it's not like they're all going to lay on the couch all summer without working hard. There might be a few that don't come back from injury or whatever, but others will undoubtedly improve.

Also Liza's costume choice. I don't know for sure, but I think those batman costumes are Liza's own preference. She also love to change layout as has been pointed out, and go back to her programs in the previous season again and again, even when the one in the previous season did not bring good results, and for that reason she went further back... It's quite wild if it were Mishin's choice; or if it was Liza's choice, didn't Mishin have to give her some kind of guideline? Mishin might be too lenient to Liza to the point he is not willing to "push" her in any way.

ewdokia said:

I think Liza’s problem might be also lack of option. I too think changing coaches might help her, no matter how close she and Mishin are and what she has achieved with him. I just looks like she can’t develop any further with him, but even regresses (and I’m not only talking about jumps). Now if you can’t progress any longer with your coach, than it might be time to move. But I don’t know who she could approach – probably she won’t move to Moscow (Andrei Lazukin is her boyfriend and he is coached by Mishin). Rukavitsin has a full group. Pisarenko is a horrific tech coach. There are not so many good coaches on that level in St. Pete. Basically her options are very limited.

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hippomoomin said:

Also Liza's costume choice. I don't know for sure, but I think those batman costumes are Liza's own preference. She also love to change layout as has been pointed out, and go back to her programs in the previous season again and again, even when the one in the previous season did not bring good results, and for that reason she went further back... It's quite wild if it were Mishin's choice; or if it was Liza's choice, didn't Mishin have to give her some kind of guideline? Mishin might be too lenient to Liza to the point he is not willing to "push" her in any way.

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I wish they would just go back to her 2014 programs, they were way better than everything she got later.

As for clothing... On her off ice pics she seems to enjoy revealing clothing (clevage and stuff), so i would think her choice was her cleopatra dress, for example.

moriel said:

I wish they would just go back to her 2014 programs, they were way better than everything she got later.

As for clothing... On her off ice pics she seems to enjoy revealing clothing (clevage and stuff), so i would think her choice was her cleopatra dress, for example.

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Those programs are beyond dated at this point. I think she needs choreo from someone she can spend a ton of time with in the rink, really working on integrating with the elements. It's not gonna happen, but it'd be cool to see her train at Plushenko's school. He's probably got an in-house choreographer or two, I would assume? Plus the Mishin technique.

andromache said:

Those programs are beyond dated at this point. I think she needs choreo from someone she can spend a ton of time with in the rink, really working on integrating with the elements. It's not gonna happen, but it'd be cool to see her train at Plushenko's school. He's probably got an in-house choreographer or two, I would assume? Plus the Mishin technique.

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I dunno, they are still best she got. And her FS suited her the best imho, as it was just upbeat and athletic - which is what she needs imho.

Did Ilya actually say in his latest interview how Radionova asked him to choreograph for her and he said no? Seems pretty uncool to publicly dis someone like that but of course Ilya must talk about how in demand he is. I hope she beats Zhenya this year just to spite him!

moriel said:

I dunno, they are still best she got. And her FS suited her the best imho, as it was just upbeat and athletic - which is what she needs imho.

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As much as I like Liza, if nobody can come up with something new for her at this point that works, I don't see the point of her sticking around. Sorry, I just don't think this endless recycling strategy is helpful to her at all and surely the judges are not impressed, either.

I blame her team and not her for this lack of development, just to be clear. I wish she could spend an extended period of time with someone like Lambiel or Sandhu without any interference from Mishin. I am sure she doesn't have to be so artistically limited, he just isn't invested in helping her progress in anything but the technical side.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Did Ilya actually say in his latest interview how Radionova asked him to choreograph for her and he said no? Seems pretty uncool to publicly dis someone like that but of course Ilya must talk about how in demand he is. I hope she beats Zhenya this year just to spite him!

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Yep not nice at all and why to single out Elena - give us the full list of those desperate in the queue

Sam-Skwantch said:

Did Ilya actually say in his latest interview how Radionova asked him to choreograph for her and he said no? Seems pretty uncool to publicly dis someone like that but of course Ilya must talk about how in demand he is. I hope she beats Zhenya this year just to spite him!

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He didnt dis Lena, he said she is great and all, but Zhenia is the only female skater he works with.

It's certainly not Zhenia's fault that Averbukh has a habit of running his mouth. I hope she beats Elena just to spite the people who want to blame her for everything

silverfoxes said:

As much as I like Liza, if nobody can come up with something new for her at this point that works, I don't see the point of her sticking around. Sorry, I just don't think this endless recycling strategy is helpful to her at all and surely the judges are not impressed, either.

I blame her team and not her for this lack of development, just to be clear. I wish she could spend an extended period of time with someone like Lambiel or Sandhu without any interference from Mishin. I am sure she doesn't have to be so artistically limited, he just isn't invested in helping her progress in anything but the technical side.

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And if she's going to be inconsistent technically (kinda like the majority of the field - the consistent rock-solid ladies are the exception, not the norm), then she should at least be competitive artistically. Having a great program, above-average skating skills, and compelling interpretation (and Liza CAN perform very well, we know that already, she gives great face) can make up for a lot. And getting out there and skating with a program you believe in can also help you out technically. I think this approach has helped out Ashley Wagner a lot (URs notwithstanding).

I believe the greatest problem Liza has no motivation after winning the WCH. She enjoys her life, her boyfriend , etc.

plushyfan said:

I believe the greatest problem Liza has no motivation after winning the WCH. She enjoys her life, her boyfriend , etc.

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I suppose Olympic games could be such a motivation, since she didnt go to Sochi.
But dunno.