2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

Ice Dance · May 6, 2017

Snow63 said:
Pavel is clearly ready for Seniors, and in my opinion, he's the strongest Junior partner since Katsalapov's transition to Seniors. Technically he's much stronger than Khaliavin, Mozgov or Bukin ever were, and stronger than Ruslan was during his transition. But with all my love to Alla, they will not be ready to challenge top 4 Russian teams. Maybe Zahorski/Guerreiro, but not higher.

I think that's a pretty plausible assessment based on what we've seen so far. L&D have a very good shot of getting two non-host spots on the GP. That is a great nod to them and good for Russian dance, but also means they will likely start off in one or two tough locations. On the JGP, they have competed 7/8 times in Europe. The senior GP can require a lot more travel, and when you are a young team just moving up, there's a good chance you wind up in a deep country & someone else's backyard. So it will probably be a year for learning & proving themselves.

But in the long run, that can be good. Better to start off with realistic expectations and put in the work it takes to get stronger.

On the plus side, the GP is now deep enough with 10 competitors that talented junior teams can get a better perspective on where they fit without automatically dropping to the bottom or just above the host teams.

On behalf of the junior teams moving up, I do think it's worth noting that their BV will go up this season. The seniors had extra elements added this year so there is potential for these top three junior teams to actually outscore teams they are aligned with on the current SB list. Typically, scores really drop when you debut as a senior. (And, of course, that's true for early-season performances of all programs for all teams). But these top three junior teams are the cream of the crop. I think they're worth watching.

noidont · May 6, 2017

Pavel Drozd and Morozov's daughter would make such a pretty team.

Snow63 · May 6, 2017

noidont said:
Pavel Drozd and Morozov's daughter would make such a pretty team.

Please, no :biggrin:

sarama · May 6, 2017

noidont said:
Pavel Drozd and Morozov's daughter would make such a pretty team.

I'm sure that if he thinks it's a good idea, he'll make it happen...that man truly has some obscure magical powers: apart from his famous voodoo, the moment I thought Ilinykh/Katsalapov weren't going anywhere, they won an OBM, the moment I lost faith in Weaver/Poje, they ended up delivering at Worlds and almost got medal, and let's not even mention the way Shizuka "unpredictable" Arakawa won the Olympics even doubling her combos ...I don't know how he does it, but he always succeed :slink:

Ice Dance · May 6, 2017

sarama said:
I don't know how he does it, but he always succeed

Well, there was Florent. And Oda. And Denis did not have a great season under Morozov.

So maybe not.

sarama · May 6, 2017

Ice Dance said:
Well, there was Florent. And Oda. And Denis did not have a great season under Morozov.

So maybe not.

Well he can't do miracles for everyone! And Danis has had worse seasons

Ice Dance · May 6, 2017

sarama said:
Well he can't do miracles for everyone!

You were the one who said "always."

Actually, Denis has never finished as low as sixteenth at Worlds before. Ever.

moriel · May 7, 2017

Ice Dance said:
I think that's a pretty plausible assessment based on what we've seen so far. L&D have a very good shot of getting two non-host spots on the GP. That is a great nod to them and good for Russian dance, but also means they will likely start off in one or two tough locations. On the JGP, they have competed 7/8 times in Europe. The senior GP can require a lot more travel, and when you are a young team just moving up, there's a good chance you wind up in a deep country & someone else's backyard. So it will probably be a year for learning & proving themselves.

But in the long run, that can be good. Better to start off with realistic expectations and put in the work it takes to get stronger.

On the plus side, the GP is now deep enough with 10 competitors that talented junior teams can get a better perspective on where they fit without automatically dropping to the bottom or just above the host teams.

On behalf of the junior teams moving up, I do think it's worth noting that their BV will go up this season. The seniors had extra elements added this year so there is potential for these top three junior teams to actually outscore teams they are aligned with on the current SB list. Typically, scores really drop when you debut as a senior. (And, of course, that's true for early-season performances of all programs for all teams). But these top three junior teams are the cream of the crop. I think they're worth watching.

Also, this is fine, because they objectively wont have a chance for olympic team. So maybe nobody will even care about them in the backyard and they will not be in any fed games and so on - they can just relax, learn and have fun.

gmyers · May 7, 2017

moriel said:
Also, this is fine, because they objectively wont have a chance for olympic team. So maybe nobody will even care about them in the backyard and they will not be in any fed games and so on - they can just relax, learn and have fun.

They should train to win every competion they enter! They won't win and won't medal but they must train and show their most extreme capabilities always.

Perfume · May 7, 2017

Pavel is great but his partner... no.

gmyers · May 7, 2017

Perfume said:
Pavel is great but his partner... no.

They still must train to get level 4 on all elements even step sequences and make sure they never do a level 1 or 2. That's a power they do have. Even she is so bad it makes level 4 impossible he must immediately drop her if she doesn't learn to skate.

coldblueeyes · May 7, 2017

Some people are talking about Alla without ever looking at their scores, it seems. She might not be the best ice dancer, but she works hard. And the two of them have a good track record with levels, in the SD in particular they cleared out more than one competition with lvl 4s in the past.

bramweld · May 7, 2017

gmyers said:
They still must train to get level 4 on all elements even step sequences and make sure they never do a level 1 or 2. That's a power they do have. Even she is so bad it makes level 4 impossible he must immediately drop her if she doesn't learn to skate.

Its not that she doesn't know how to, its just that she's out of her depth. Things will get progressively smoother for him but she just is always struggling just to keep up. I don't think its so easy to accomodate a weaker partner as one might think. The Russian Fed just needs to get practical and create partnerships that are feasible and stop with this nonsense of lying to couples and forcing things to happen that just aren't there. I recall Bobrova talking about how exhausted she was after a long season but then I watched Weaver and Poje and thought, really? That WTT FD was awful, absolutely dreadful and they are the Russian No. 1 team? Excuse me while I go scratch my head.

Ice Dance · May 7, 2017

B&S are number 1 because they stayed together, despite the comments of critics insisting that she was the weaker partner.

Almost all teams have a stronger and weaker partner. In the entire top ten, Cappellini & Lanotte are the only team I can think of which do not face constant critique regarding one of the athletes being weaker. Someone is almost always stronger. Someone is almost always weaker. That isn't the game. The game is who is the strongest team.

I like Alla & Pavel as a team. She humanizes him. She is the one that connects with the audience. He is the stronger skater & has fabulous positions. But together they can tell a story. Which is a gift that a good many top dance teams in the world do not have so I value it.

moriel · May 7, 2017

gmyers said:
They should train to win every competion they enter! They won't win and won't medal but they must train and show their most extreme capabilities always.

They should train, yes. But then, objectively, they arent going to win anything, turning seniors on Olympic year.
So whatever they do, this year is a long term investment for them, rather than "train to win right now right here".

bramweld · May 7, 2017

Ice Dance said:
B&S are number 1 because they stayed together, despite the comments of critics insisting that she was the weaker partner.

Almost all teams have a stronger and weaker partner. In the entire top ten, Cappellini & Lanotte are the only team I can think of which do not face constant critique regarding one of the athletes being weaker. Someone is almost always stronger. Someone is almost always weaker. That isn't the game. The game is who is the strongest team.

I like Alla & Pavel as a team. She humanizes him. She is the one that connects with the audience. He is the stronger skater & has fabulous positions. But together they can tell a story. Which is a gift that a good many top dance teams in the world do not have so I value it.

Seriously? IMHO, she looks lost most of the time. Also how do you humanise someone who barely even looks at you?

One of the problems with Russian ice dance is that their male dancers have very poor partnering skills with few exceptions. Of the current batch I think Bukin has the best partnering skills. The rule of thumb seems to be male partner skates at breakneck speed and their expendable partners had better keep up and be more flexible than play dough. Even their cross overs look rough, I can't understand why basic skating and partnering skills aren't more important in the Russian ice dance school. I may not be Morozov's biggest fan but the improvement in fundamantal skating skills that W/P showed this season will serve them well next year, provided of course that Andrew controls his twizzles.

Ice Dance · May 7, 2017

moriel said:
They should train, yes. But then, objectively, they arent going to win anything

I like to think with a good solid Nikita-ed set of twizzles and an I&Z splat, anything is possible for the bronze at Russian Nationals. It would be best if neither of the former happen; but I'm all for an upset from L&D or Z&G if disaster ensues.

(Clearly I'm living in denial about the Zhiganshin retirement rumors).

moriel · May 7, 2017

Ice Dance said:
I like to think with a good solid Nikita-ed set of twizzles and an I&Z splat, anything is possible for the bronze at Russian Nationals. It would be best if neither of the former happen; but I'm all for an upset from L&D or Z&G if disaster ensues.

(Clearly I'm living in denial about the Zhiganshin retirement rumors).

They will probably not bit B/S and S/B though, and russia got only 2 oly spots, no?
So doubt russian fed will support them this season, they will put all on oly potential teams

gmyers · May 7, 2017

bramweld said:
Its not that she doesn't know how to, its just that she's out of her depth. Things will get progressively smoother for him but she just is always struggling just to keep up. I don't think its so easy to accomodate a weaker partner as one might think. The Russian Fed just needs to get practical and create partnerships that are feasible and stop with this nonsense of lying to couples and forcing things to happen that just aren't there. I recall Bobrova talking about how exhausted she was after a long season but then I watched Weaver and Poje and thought, really? That WTT FD was awful, absolutely dreadful and they are the Russian No. 1 team? Excuse me while I go scratch my head.

I've been waiting for Stepanova and Bukin to break up for years! Everyone says and it's really unanimous except for Besti that she doesn't have the talent level and is destroying the potential for the team! Everyone hears it and everyone knows it but you obviously know who doesn't and that's Bukin! So one can't wait for drozd to break up with loboda or the team to be broken up by the federation! So she must raise her level and be taught how to be a better ice dancer. I'm sure that's why drozd is still with her? Why haven't they broken up yet if he doesn't have hope? But this might be a federation problem as they believe only one skater needs talent?

moriel said:
They should train, yes. But then, objectively, they arent going to win anything, turning seniors on Olympic year.
So whatever they do, this year is a long term investment for them, rather than "train to win right now right here".

I agree they won't win anything but clearly having all level four elements every competion can't hurt them! That's all the power they have. Every team can read the IJS manuals and go to events with all level 4 elements. Even getting high pcs is all in the manuals but that's tougher. That takes time.

moriel said:
They will probably not bit B/S and S/B though, and russia got only 2 oly spots, no?
So doubt russian fed will support them this season, they will put all on oly potential teams

But they still must work extremely hard get all level 4's and skate clean and not treat the season as a long show skating adventure

bramweld · May 8, 2017

gmyers said:
I've been waiting for Stepanova and Bukin to break up for years! Everyone says and it's really unanimous except for Besti that she doesn't have the talent level and is destroying the potential for the team! Everyone hears it and everyone knows it but you obviously know who doesn't and that's Bukin! So one can't wait for drozd to break up with loboda or the team to be broken up by the federation! So she must raise her level and be taught how to be a better ice dancer. I'm sure that's why drozd is still with her? Why haven't they broken up yet if he doesn't have hope? But this might be a federation problem as they believe only one skater needs talent?

I agree they won't win anything but clearly having all level four elements every competion can't hurt them! That's all the power they have. Every team can read the IJS manuals and go to events with all level 4 elements. Even getting high pcs is all in the manuals but that's tougher. That takes time.

But they still must work extremely hard get all level 4's and skate clean and not treat the season as a long show skating adventure

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious. First she's built according to acceptable Russian ice dance standards, she's extremely flexible, this year she found her personality on ice and she's the only girl that Bukin can work with. They would never split them up. I get the feeling that the federations power over athletes in comparison to earlier years has waned considerably, as it should be, I imagine. So you're right until the skaters themselves see the light we might as well just quit complaining and enjoy Russian ice dance for what it is. Please don't ask though I'm not sure how to respond to that.

2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

Ice Dance

noidont

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

sarama

Ice Dance

sarama

Ice Dance

moriel

gmyers

Perfume

Match Penalty

gmyers

coldblueeyes

bramweld

Ice Dance

moriel

bramweld

Ice Dance

moriel

gmyers

bramweld

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