2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

Mattieu · May 8, 2017

gmyers said:
I've been waiting for Stepanova and Bukin to break up for years! Everyone says and it's really unanimous except for Besti that she doesn't have the talent level and is destroying the potential for the team! Everyone hears it and everyone knows it but you obviously know who doesn't and that's Bukin!

That's what everyone said about Gabriella Papadakis, that she was destroying Guillaume's potential, yet look at where they are now, never underestimate the advantage years and years of skating together gives a team, even if the girl is weaker. All of the top teams have been together 11+ years according to a poster on FSU I think it was. If Bukin starts again with another girl, it will take 3 years or more just to get back to where he is now.

noidont · May 8, 2017

At this rate Stepanova/Bukin will become the next Bob/Sol, which is more than I expected for this team.
Papadakis was always full of potentials though. She was so grungy in juniors and definitely the coolest kid on the block. Even if P/C didn't improve so much technically they would have been a top 10 team plus fan favorite no problem. I don't see Loboda/Drozd possessing that quality. The only team I'm fascinated with is Popova/Mozgov and I don't even know who if anyone is coaching them. Now this is real "potential", at least for entertainment value.

coldblueeyes · May 8, 2017

Popova and Mozgov will never amount to anything. There, I said it. Mozgov is a strong skater, but he seems to have lost a bit of his technique in the way lately, and Popova was always sloppy.

As for Stepanova and Bukin, I hardly think she's the only one dragging the team down. They should move to a technician, because they have nice programs, nice lines, what's missing is the levels, and GOE. We can all talk about P/C and how wonderful they are, but if they stayed with some other second rate coach do we think they would ever reach the top ten? No.

It was evident in the last Worlds that Montreal not only have a good base for technique, but they've achieved a political standing to be respected. Had H/D not failed in the FD they'd get all the podium in ID, and that's nothing to sneeze at, and it's possible that they might monopolize the podium in the Olympics.

bramweld · May 8, 2017

coldblueeyes said:
Popova and Mozgov will never amount to anything. There, I said it. Mozgov is a strong skater, but he seems to have lost a bit of his technique in the way lately, and Popova was always sloppy.

As for Stepanova and Bukin, I hardly think she's the only one dragging the team down. They should move to a technician, because they have nice programs, nice lines, what's missing is the levels, and GOE. We can all talk about P/C and how wonderful they are, but if they stayed with some other second rate coach do we think they would ever reach the top ten? No.

It was evident in the last Worlds that Montreal not only have a good base for technique, but they've achieved a political standing to be respected. Had H/D not failed in the FD they'd get all the podium in ID, and that's nothing to sneeze at, and it's possible that they might monopolize the podium in the Olympics.

With this I agree. Its just such a pity though that the same country that gave us Usova and Zhulin is still having a hard time cranking out the calibre athletes they used to. COP has been around for a long time. Again I was watching W/Ps 2012 S/D, rhumba/samba and I am amazed at how effective Poje is with presenting himself and his partner simultaneously. The movements breathed. When I watched I/Ks same rhumba/samba it was like Nikita was skating by himself at breakneck speed, he looked sloppy and as usual he couldn't control his turns and twizzles. How is it that they weren't able to fix that fundamental flaw in his skating? I've seen him struggling with those from 2008. Pavel is also a tall guy but maybe bigger and he seems to control his twizzles quite well. As a federation Russia doesn't seem to know how to develop their dancers consistently well. Then you take a look at what Dubreil and her team are doing and say what gives?

Anyasnake · May 8, 2017

coldblueeyes said:
Popova and Mozgov will never amount to anything. There, I said it. Mozgov is a strong skater, but he seems to have lost a bit of his technique in the way lately, and Popova was always sloppy.

As for Stepanova and Bukin, I hardly think she's the only one dragging the team down. They should move to a technician, because they have nice programs, nice lines, what's missing is the levels, and GOE. We can all talk about P/C and how wonderful they are, but if they stayed with some other second rate coach do we think they would ever reach the top ten? No.

It was evident in the last Worlds that Montreal not only have a good base for technique, but they've achieved a political standing to be respected. Had H/D not failed in the FD they'd get all the podium in ID, and that's nothing to sneeze at, and it's possible that they might monopolize the podium in the Olympics.

They were coached by Muriel Boucher-Zazoui who brought Anissina/Peizerat to Olympic Gold, and by Roman Haguenauer before moving to montreal. Muriel has a palmares that is enormous in terms of teams getting medals.
The huge difference is that P/C were skating from 6 to maybe 8 A.M and then had to go to class, because in France, the rinks are busy during the day so you have to train on the morning (or at the end of the afternoon). You could see how their stamina have changed now that they almost exclusively focus on skating. I'm thinking that the juniors years weren't easy for them because of their situation.
But I agree that Marie-France/Patrice/Romain is the best combo for them. They have Romain they say they "blindly" trust, they have MF who is creatively the best for them, and Patrice gave them discipline and technical abilities.

But yes for Stepanova/Bukin fixing their levels with another coach. I'm just waiting for their breakthrough :biggrin:

But if I understand correctly it's not really okay for a russian team to be coached outside of Russia... But if they can I want them to go to Montreal ! They're only missing a russian team and the circle is complete

lauravvv · May 8, 2017

Ice Dance said:
In the entire top ten, Cappellini & Lanotte are the only team I can think of which do not face constant critique regarding one of the athletes being weaker.

I know this is becoming too off-topic now, but really?? I personally have read a lot of complaints about Anna Cappellini's weak skating skills (for a top skater), her skating on flats most of the time etc., but have read nothing of the sort about Luca Lanotte. And some have said outright she is the weaker skater in that team.

In fact, the only team that I have practically never seen criticized about one partner being weaker than the other are Virtue/Moir. Actually, quite a lot of people have emphasized their equality (in skating skills, in how they share the workload during lifts etc.) as being one of their main strengths. There are, like, one or two exceptions, but even those are people who dislike Tessa and say she is weaker than Scott/even mediocre without really being able to explain why, except probably that she is "bland".

Sam-Skwantch · May 8, 2017

lauravvv said:
I know this is becoming too off-topic now, but really?? I personally have read a lot of complaints about Anna Cappellini's weak skating skills (for a top skater), her skating on flats most of the time etc., but have read nothing of the sort about Luca Lanotte. And some have said outright she is the weaker skater in that team.

Grrrrrrrr!!!:angry1:

gmyers · May 8, 2017

bramweld said:
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious. First she's built according to acceptable Russian ice dance standards, she's extremely flexible, this year she found her personality on ice and she's the only girl that Bukin can work with. They would never split them up. I get the feeling that the federations power over athletes in comparison to earlier years has waned considerably, as it should be, I imagine. So you're right until the skaters themselves see the light we might as well just quit complaining and enjoy Russian ice dance for what it is. Please don't ask though I'm not sure how to respond to that.

It was very serious and I wonder how Russia only having two spots and it's worst preolympic worlds in dance ever is affecting the skaters! How is Bukin feeling about the Russian system now? If the Russian system is telling him Stepanova is acceptable and Russia didn't medal in dance for first time ever is he ok?

Mattieu said:
That's what everyone said about Gabriella Papadakis, that she was destroying Guillaume's potential, yet look at where they are now, never underestimate the advantage years and years of skating together gives a team, even if the girl is weaker. All of the top teams have been together 11+ years according to a poster on FSU I think it was. If Bukin starts again with another girl, it will take 3 years or more just to get back to where he is now.

I know that's true but p/c moved to North America To be coached by dubreil and S/b are still in Russia being coached by zvinan and shuk

Ice Dance · May 9, 2017

lauravvv said:
I know this is becoming too off-topic now, but really?? I personally have read a lot of complaints about Anna Cappellini's weak skating skills (for a top skater), her skating on flats most of the time etc., but have read nothing of the sort about Luca Lanotte. And some have said outright she is the weaker skater in that team.

In fact, the only team that I have practically never seen criticized about one partner being weaker than the other are Virtue/Moir. Actually, quite a lot of people have emphasized their equality (in skating skills, in how they share the workload during lifts etc.) as being one of their main strengths.

Then we shall just have to agree that all of the top ten are criticized for being unequal. In my home, "Tessa's twizzles" are essentially the gauntlet that must be crossed before any V&M program is in the books. (Though my Mom called it this year & said Scott was the one who would muck up at Worlds. How she knew . . .? But I enjoyed Tessa smiling away afterward. It's always nice when different members of a team muck up. Then one feels they can both understand and all will be right with said team in the future.

lauravvv · May 9, 2017

Ice Dance said:
Then we shall just have to agree that all of the top ten are criticized for being unequal. In my home, "Tessa's twizzles" are essentially the gauntlet that must be crossed before any V&M program is in the books. (Though my Mom called it this year & said Scott was the one who would muck up at Worlds. How she knew . . .?

I personally don't think that one element on which one of the partners tends to make mistakes more often is enough to consider that partner inferior. Also, I think that most of Tessa's twizzle mistakes have been either from nerves (especially in the 2013/2014 season after that crucial mistake at 2013 worlds) or an accident (Skate Canada this past season), not that her twizzles are so inherently bad. Besides, it was Scott whose twizzles were on the werge most of the time this season even though they managed to not lose levels. In any case, in ice dancing if one of the partners is considered weaker it's usually because of weaker skating skills (just read back in this very thread). In case of male partners the partner not being a very good lifter can also play a role in that, but, more often than not, skating skills are the main reason for calling a partner weaker - weather it's the male partner or the female.

For instance, many still consider Katsalapov the better half of his team with Sinitsina even despite his twizzle problems and him being both not a very good lifter and a bad competitor. All because of Sinitsina being the weaker skater (as in, weaker skating skills) and also the weaker performer (the skating skills still being the primary reason). Weaver/Poje are another case. Poje is the one who makes mistakes in most cases - mainly on twizzles, but he has also made mistskes in lifts and even stumbled on footwork sequences in the past. But it's Weaver, not Poje, who has been called the weaker partner quite often. Again, all because of her supposedly weaker skating skills.

Snow63 · May 9, 2017

bramweld said:
Its not that she doesn't know how to, its just that she's out of her depth. Things will get progressively smoother for him but she just is always struggling just to keep up. I don't think its so easy to accomodate a weaker partner as one might think. The Russian Fed just needs to get practical and create partnerships that are feasible and stop with this nonsense of lying to couples and forcing things to happen that just aren't there. I recall Bobrova talking about how exhausted she was after a long season but then I watched Weaver and Poje and thought, really? That WTT FD was awful, absolutely dreadful and they are the Russian No. 1 team? Excuse me while I go scratch my head.

At least they don't go dropping themself, flowers or bracelets all over the rink at the important events. They are professional enough not to do this, and that's why they're #1 and will remain there until they retire.

As for that FD? Well, that was probably their worst skate of the season :confused2: And still it was okay. Should I mention how worst skates of the season for other top Russian teams went?

Snow63 · May 9, 2017

coldblueeyes said:
Popova and Mozgov will never amount to anything. There, I said it. Mozgov is a strong skater, but he seems to have lost a bit of his technique in the way lately, and Popova was always sloppy.

As for Stepanova and Bukin, I hardly think she's the only one dragging the team down. They should move to a technician, because they have nice programs, nice lines, what's missing is the levels, and GOE. We can all talk about P/C and how wonderful they are, but if they stayed with some other second rate coach do we think they would ever reach the top ten? No.

It was evident in the last Worlds that Montreal not only have a good base for technique, but they've achieved a political standing to be respected. Had H/D not failed in the FD they'd get all the podium in ID, and that's nothing to sneeze at, and it's possible that they might monopolize the podium in the Olympics.

Mozgov is strong overall, but his skating skills are nothing to write about. He's a good lifter, twizzler, organic dancer, and he's presentation is always on point though. As for Betina, she's always been more like a hit'n'miss skater. She could really nail it, or totally bomb at the same element performed back to back. But her edges are deep and she can work in the lifts. It's the consistency she lacks of.

And I 100% agree about Montreal. They understand how ISU works and how judging system changes. They don't do acrobatic lifts with difficult entries, difficult pose and positions for both partners, and difficult exits gliding in front of judges like acrobats in the circus just to show 'look what we can'... instead they do simple ORGANIC lifts, which capture story and music well. And guess what? That's exactly what these changes allowed and welcomed recently. Shekhovtseva said it in her article, and anyone who have brain and eyes can see that in the rulebook. And Montreal do just that.
Zhulin says, that top teams should do difficult lifts which juniors will not be able to repeat. Really? Where in the Rules stated such nonsense? Nowhere to be found. And other coaches are not better. Elena and Ruslan are still doing that swan lift. But the truth is it's the past. Teams have to be really creative and organic to win something, holding awkward position with shaking free leg for 3 seconds is just not enough anymore. And the lifts are just an example, there's more changes. Even Shpilband lost the track of them, IMO. He tried innovative choreography, but he also should evolve the elements.

Ice Dance · May 9, 2017

Snow63 said:
Should I mention how worst skates of the season for other top Russian teams went?

I really think someone should put together a worst-skates-of-the-dance-season blooper reel this year.

We've got . . .
Lorenz & Polizoakis's Senior B SD--I believe there was splatting & naught higher than a level two.
Zach's splat at Worlds
Hawayek & Baker's two falls in the FD at Nationals
Nikita's twizzles from Europeans
Guignard & Fabbri's crash at Europeans
Evan's multiple blown twizzles (let's throw in all three performances, shall we?)
Piper's splat at 4CCs
Ilinykh's splat at TEB
B&S's botched twizzles & lift from WTT
Quinn's fall in the FD at Nationals
At least three sets of wobbly twizzles for Poje
V&M's messy SC FD
Chock's splat at the GPF
Hubbell's splat at Nationals
Min & Gamelin's twizzle fall in the FD at Worlds
Cappellini & Lanotte's choreographic extra turn from Euros
Carreira & Ponomarenko blew the twizzles a few times (Lake Placid was probably the worst on tape).
Loboda & Drozd had at least two disasters in Russia. (I opted not to watch either so not sure which was worse).
Abachkina & Thauron had problems in both the SD and FD at Worlds
The Greens' splat in the SD at Nationals
Bent & Razgulajev's splat at the U.S. Classic
Polischuk & Vakhnov's lift where she stepped right off his skate
Hurtado & Khaliavin's debut SD at the Santa Claus Cup
Smart & Diaz's blown twizzles at Nationals (cut to soundbite from Worlds of her saying, "Twizzles are hard, guys.")

There are more worthy selections, I am sure. Such a video reel would certainly show that all these teams are in good company. And also--I think--that the sport is more athletically challenging these days. Visible mistakes are much more common. And consistency is as valuable as ever.

Marta25 · May 9, 2017

Snow63 said:
Mozgov is strong overall, but his skating skills are nothing to write about. He's a good lifter, twizzler, organic dancer, and he's presentation is always on point though. As for Betina, she's always been more like a hit'n'miss skater. She could really nail it, or totally bomb at the same element performed back to back. But her edges are deep and she can work in the lifts. It's the consistency she lacks of.

And I 100% agree about Montreal. They understand how ISU works and how judging system changes. They don't do acrobatic lifts with difficult entries, difficult pose and positions for both partners, and difficult exits gliding in front of judges like acrobats in the circus just to show 'look what we can'... instead they do simple ORGANIC lifts, which capture story and music well. And guess what? That's exactly what these changes allowed and welcomed recently. Shekhovtseva said it in her article, and anyone who have brain and eyes can see that in the rulebook. And Montreal do just that.
Zhulin says, that top teams should do difficult lifts which juniors will not be able to repeat. Really? Where in the Rules stated such nonsense? Nowhere to be found. And other coaches are not better. Elena and Ruslan are still doing that swan lift. But the truth is it's the past. Teams have to be really creative and organic to win something, holding awkward position with shaking free leg for 3 seconds is just not enough anymore. And the lifts are just an example, there's more changes. Even Shpilband lost the track of them, IMO. He tried innovative choreography, but he also should evolve the elements.

It`s really tough to create innovative lifts, though. There are just only so many positions the dancers can get their bodies into, besides you have also the issue that it takes time to get it good enough to gain high GOE. B/S`s new rotational lift was for me one of the few new lifts lately that really stood out.

Ice Dance · May 9, 2017

Marta25 said:
It`s really tough to create innovative lifts, though. There are just only so many positions the dancers can get their bodies into, besides you have also the issue that it takes time to get it good enough to gain high GOE. B/S`s new rotational lift was for me one of the few new lifts lately that really stood out.

I think a lot of wonderful lifts are introduced early in the season that sadly get tossed because they don't get the credit. (I've seen it happen quite a bit just within the last two seasons). And then we wind up with more recycled ones or just slightly adapted versions of the same positions.

gmyers · May 9, 2017

Marta25 said:
It`s really tough to create innovative lifts, though. There are just only so many positions the dancers can get their bodies into, besides you have also the issue that it takes time to get it good enough to gain high GOE. B/S`s new rotational lift was for me one of the few new lifts lately that really stood out.

Innovation is not rewarded more than recycled or easy but well executed.

moriel · May 9, 2017

gmyers said:
Innovation is not rewarded more than recycled or easy but well executed.

which kinda sucks because original movements, or rarely used movements, or original variations of common movements are quite cool.

Snow63 · May 9, 2017

gmyers said:
Innovation is not rewarded more than recycled or easy but well executed.

Innovative doesn't mean difficult, not always at least. ISU made sure that simple lifts get rewarded as much as difficult 'standart' or 'recycled' ones. Look at Montreal school, they are first to see that.

Snow63 · May 9, 2017

Marta25 said:
It`s really tough to create innovative lifts, though. There are just only so many positions the dancers can get their bodies into, besides you have also the issue that it takes time to get it good enough to gain high GOE. B/S`s new rotational lift was for me one of the few new lifts lately that really stood out.

It's not easy to be creative, right? I'm glad that Bobrova and Soloviev don't usually recycle their lifts, however I wish Zhulin changed his agenda 'the more difficult and complicated the better'. It's not working that way anymore, he should stop. His approach is outdated, I have clearly realized it last season. And no, I'm not talking about choreography at all. And no, he's not the only one.

Ice Dance · May 9, 2017

I love innovative, aesthetic lifts. I also love when teams tackle really tough lifts that may take a while to perfect.

The problem with a Code of Points system is that it rarely anticipates creativity. So teams can come up with a very tough, original lift & not get credit for it unless it checks the boxes already within the system. (This is something I miss about 6.0. When you came up with something new, the system was open enough to reward it without having to predict the future).

I don't agree with rewarding lifts just based on originality though. The problem with rewarding innovative/original easy lifts in a Code of Points system is that they lose their uniqueness in a heartbeat. Pretty soon everyone uses them or a variation of them.

And then the code has to be rewritten again.

When a lift looks hard and no one poaches it, it's probably because the lift is hard. When everyone poaches it, well, you know everyone has the ability to poach it.

2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

Mattieu

noidont

coldblueeyes

bramweld

Anyasnake

lauravvv

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

gmyers

Ice Dance

lauravvv

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

Ice Dance

Marta25

Ice Dance

gmyers

moriel

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

Ice Dance

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