Shoma Uno Flutz vs Nathan/ Boyang Lutz | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Shoma Uno Flutz vs Nathan/ Boyang Lutz

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
If I was a Nathan fan wanting to complain about TP inconsistencies/bad technique getting leeway etc, I'd be focusing more on US Nationals, where the tech panel are marshmallows and where skaters with good jump technique like Nathan, Max and Joshua can be hurt as skaters with URs and edges and all kinds of other issues, like Adam and Vincent, are given massive gifts (which can even cause wrong results).
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Math's point is that when someone posts a "Joe" vs. "Joe" thread, it usually ends up being a bashing or trolling thread.

:eek:topic: I don't think it's fair to judge people on a perceived intention without prof. When an admin of the site puts a comment like that he himself has ensured that the discussion will go nowhere because now everyone who does not want be called a hater will avoid the thread (we have seen it happen before and I am getting tired of it).

Back on topic, I would really like for someone with better knowledge than me on jump technique to explain the difference between the way Shoma jumps and the other two. If it is not a flutz and the video is people bashing on him, can someone explain how to spot flutz.

Disclaimer: I am not a hater,I happen to like Shoma a lot. I am interested in learning about figure skating and these kind of topics are very useful to me. I do not care why the video was made but I do care to know what people think of its content
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
:eek:topic: I don't think it's fair to judge people on a perceived intention without prof. When an admin of the site puts a comment like that he himself has ensured that the discussion will go nowhere because now everyone who does not want be called a hater will avoid the thread (we have seen it happen before and I am getting tired of it).

Back on topic, I would really like for someone with better knowledge than me on jump technique to explain the difference between the way Shoma jumps and the other two. If it is not a flutz and the video is people bashing on him, can someone explain how to spot flutz.

Disclaimer: I am not a hater,I happen to like Shoma a lot. I am interested in learning about figure skating and these kind of topics are very useful to me. I do not care why the video was made but I do care to know what people think of its content

I am mostly bothered by his pre-rotations (which is something you can actually notice on replayes - see the amount of time he remains on ice, and the number of rotations he does in the air).
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
:eek:topic: I don't think it's fair to judge people on a perceived intention without prof. When an admin of the site puts a comment like that he himself has ensured that the discussion will go nowhere because now everyone who does not want be called a hater will avoid the thread (we have seen it happen before and I am getting tired of it).

Back on topic, I would really like for someone with better knowledge than me on jump technique to explain the difference between the way Shoma jumps and the other two. If it is not a flutz and the video is people bashing on him, can someone explain how to spot flutz.

Disclaimer: I am not a hater,I happen to like Shoma a lot. I am interested in learning about figure skating and these kind of topics are very useful to me. I do not care why the video was made but I do care to know what people think of its content

There is already a three page thread regarding Men who Flutz.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?63795-Men-who-are-flutzers/page2

I found Post No. 30 by @gkelly helpful.
 

Diahpam

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
I must admit, this season i was pretty tired of shoma's uncalled prerotation, because is clear but he got away with it. Last season enjoy his program so much(especially the sp) but this season i'm unable to do so(although The lp was great) because the pre-rotation is always there. It's a bit sad because his style and intepretation are top notch. Of course the issue is not in shoma entirely but rather in the tech panel and judge.
I hope this season shoma would focus to work on that issue and next season would be better.

Nb. I dont think, how discussing bad technics is consodered bashing? Ah well..
 
Last edited:

icybear

Medalist
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
:eek:topic:
Back on topic, I would really like for someone with better knowledge than me on jump technique to explain the difference between the way Shoma jumps and the other two. If it is not a flutz and the video is people bashing on him, can someone explain how to spot flutz.

Disclaimer: I am not a hater,I happen to like Shoma a lot. I am interested in learning about figure skating and these kind of topics are very useful to me. I do not care why the video was made but I do care to know what people think of its content

Flutz is when a skater uses an inside edge instead of the outside edge required for a Lutz. An outside edge, the blade is tilting to the left of the skater as can be seen by Nathan/ Boyang Lutz. An inside edge, the blade is tilting to the right as can be seen by Uno flutz.
 

synesthesia

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Country
Germany
Back on topic, I would really like for someone with better knowledge than me on jump technique to explain the difference between the way Shoma jumps and the other two. If it is not a flutz and the video is people bashing on him, can someone explain how to spot flutz.

Disclaimer: I am not a hater,I happen to like Shoma a lot. I am interested in learning about figure skating and these kind of topics are very useful to me. I do not care why the video was made but I do care to know what people think of its content

demarinis pointed to an explanation why some jumps receive some leniency in regards to underrotation. gkelly's post doesn't explain how to spot a wrong take-off edge though, which I gather is your question?

As to what a Lutz with proper take-off edge should look like I'd like to refer to Michael Weiss' jump tutorial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNmTZlo0tc8


If a skater's ankle shifts so much, that the blade is forced to the inside edge at the moment of take-off, the jump would be considered a "flutz", which is then indicated with an "e" in the protocol and results in a reduced BV and GOE. The technical panel may review the take-off in slow motion to make the call.

The skater will usually receive the benefit of the doubt when they take off from a flat edge, which is then indicated with an "!" in the protocol. In this case the BV isn't reduced, but it may affect the GOE on that element.

Shoma has the tendency to shift to a flat (and sometimes inside) edge.


Does that answer your questions?
 
Last edited:

gsk8

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Country
United-States
:eek:topic: I don't think it's fair to judge people on a perceived intention without prof. When an admin of the site puts a comment like that he himself has ensured that the discussion will go nowhere because now everyone who does not want be called a hater will avoid the thread (we have seen it happen before and I am getting tired of it).

Back on topic, I would really like for someone with better knowledge than me on jump technique to explain the difference between the way Shoma jumps and the other two. If it is not a flutz and the video is people bashing on him, can someone explain how to spot flutz.

Disclaimer: I am not a hater,I happen to like Shoma a lot. I am interested in learning about figure skating and these kind of topics are very useful to me. I do not care why the video was made but I do care to know what people think of its content

The staff has had multiple discussions on "versus" threads, and we all agree that these threads cause a great deal of discord and division in the community. Nevertheless, we continue to allow them in hopes that each one will be better than the last.

If folks could maturely discuss their thoughts and opinions without being condescending, insulting others, and/or just outright shredding other skaters, it wouldn't be so bad. Unfortunately, that's not the case we have found over the years. It's very difficult to find a happy balance.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
demarinis pointed to an explanation why some jumps receive some leniency in regards to underrotation. gkelly's post doesn't explain how to spot a wrong take-off edge though, which I gather is your question?

As to what a Lutz with proper take-off edge should look like I'd like to refer to Michael Weiss' jump tutorial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNmTZlo0tc8


If a skater's ankle shifts so much, that the blade is forced to the inside edge at the moment of take-off, the jump would be considered a "flutz", which is then indicated with an "e" in the protocol and results in a reduced BV and GOE. The technical panel may review the take-off in slow motion to make the call.

The skater will usually receive the benefit of the doubt when they take off from a flat edge, which is then indicated with an "!" in the protocol. In this case the BV isn't reduced, but it may affect the GOE on that element.

Shoma has the tendency to shift to a flat (and sometimes inside) edge.


Does that answer your questions?

Yes, thank you very much :thank:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Well, firstly, Uno has had greater success correcting the edge this season vs. the season before (so, to the person who says they feel sorry for those who try to correct the edge, Uno is trying to correct it).

This video incorrectly breaks down Uno's lutz calls at the 1-minute mark -- Uno did get a ! call at Cup of Russia, and a ! call at the GPF, and yet the video says they were "NO CALL". :unsure:

Secondly that video is misleading by only showing just one example of Uno flutzing (I think Cup of Russia 2016 judging by the arena boards?). Since, the description obviously shows that the video maker(s) wants the judges to call Uno's flutz edge as an "e", they probably should have exhibited every lutz attempt this season, particularly ones that were given "no calls" by the tech specialist.

Not to mention, if Uno wants to go for a 4Z, that's his prerogative. Even with an "e" (flutz with 30% deduction), the BV for his jump would be 9.5, compared to his 3Z (6.0 full BV, 4.2 with "e") -- and with an "e" and a <, the BV is still 8.4. So, if he can come close to executing the quad, he might as well go for it, because even with the deduction, he'll get more points than he can get with a triple.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
The end of the video though, it shows that throughout the season, Uno only got one '!' and one 'e' call. Most of the time, he pretty much got away with it.

Actually the video maker fails to include "!" calls at COR and the GPF. So really, Uno is given some sort of edge call about half the time.

But, like other lippers and flutzers in the past, he's shown progress in correcting the edge compared to the previous season. :clap:
 

Diahpam

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 15, 2015

What i mean in mu post merely that we should see the message first before shooting the messanger at once. From what i see i think the vid is rather fair, But of course, everyone have different opinion and prespective.

On checking shoma thread, maybe i will; or maybe i wont. I dont usually lurking in ff of a skater i'm not a fan of. (by not a fan didnt mean i'm a shoma hater. I ship team japan anyway!) I felt it impolite and like trespassing someone privacy.
Are you planning to make analysis on shoma's technics/training/program? Wow, goodluck! I hope everything will go smoothly. If you finish, i hope you will post in edge as well, it must be interesting.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
What you think about prerotation ? When I see head to head comparison with Chen without pre rotation and Shoma with basically full rotation on ice, I have to say I have a big problem with technical caller....

Well, I don't think he does basically a full rotation on the ice - certainly not on his 3Z as that video shows, and until he actually does a 4Z attempt in competition, I don't think anyone can say with certainty that he pre-rotates his 4Z.

As for his 4F, I think Uno does pre-rotate it to some extent, but I personally don't find it egregious enough to give him a < call. I'd certainly reduce GOE though (like, I'd give it a 0 for his best attempts), and give somebody like Nathan a higher mark on his 4F (probably a +2 for his best attempts). It's Uno's first season with the jump so hopefully it will be better for next season. As far as I understand, < and << calls regard primarily the landings, and tech specialists are more lenient with takeoffs (if pre-rotation were called strictly, I'm sure more skaters, especially the ladies, would get < calls on their flips and lutzes) . Until then, I think that he's being scored appropriately (assuming sufficient GOE reduction) -- even though I'm sure some people, such as "Nathan Fan would love to see Uno lose greater points, wherever possible.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I love Shoma's knees and musicality and the real heart and passion he brings to the ice, but man, I am not a fan of his jumps. His flutz is really the least of my worries. (It's certainly not the most egregious I've seen - he really waits until the very, very last moment before changing edges - other flutzers seem to do it earlier in the jump.)

I wish the judges would be a little less generous on his GOE due to prerotation and his often wonky landings, but that's about it. No real complaints from me.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I love Shoma's knees and musicality and the real heart and passion he brings to the ice, but man, I am not a fan of his jumps. His flutz is really the least of my worries. (It's certainly not the most egregious I've seen - he really waits until the very, very last moment before changing edges - other flutzers seem to do it earlier in the jump.)

I wish the judges would be a little less generous on his GOE due to prerotation and his often wonky landings, but that's about it. No real complaints from me.

It would be good for him too, and for the young skaters for whom he may be an example of how to skate. He has no motivation to improve his technique, and other skaters will have no motivation to learn proper technique as there is they see the judge´s generosity.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
FWIW, if you didn't check out the video, here's the description of the video

Shoma Uno does not have a true Lutz. He is a FLUTZER and rarely gets 'e' calls for his wrong edge in the Lutz. Not to mention, Shoma Uno does not have true toe pick jumps, he leaves the ice by his right blade, not the right toe pick. Shoma Uno pre-rotates almost whole first rotation on the ice in both Flip and Lutz. Yet next season Shoma Uno has announced he wants to try out 4lz. If ISU technical specialists still ignore Shoma Uno's cheating, how does that sound fair to true Lutz jumper like Nathan Chen and Boyang Jin?

This video is not an attempt to have a productive discussion on technical calling. It's a means to call out "Shoma the flutzing cheater!"

It does seem like the ISU goes into phases regarding edge calls. There was a period where it was so heavily penalized that even a ! prompted Yuna Kim to change her excellent 3F-3T to a 3Z-3T.

I feel the penalty is harsher since you don't only lose -GOE but BV, but you really have to be egregious to get the e -- and the BV deduction that comes with it.
 

Neenah16

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
FWIW, if you didn't check out the video, here's the description of the video



This video is not an attempt to have a productive discussion on technical calling. It's a means to call out "Shoma the flutzing cheater!"

It does seem like the ISU goes into phases regarding edge calls. There was a period where it was so heavily penalized that even a ! prompted Yuna Kim to change her excellent 3F-3T to a 3Z-3T.

I feel the penalty is harsher since you don't only lose -GOE but BV, but you really have to be egregious to get the e -- and the BV deduction that comes with it.

The video may not be made for discussion, but for someone like me who is still learning about figure skating it helps much to see what everyone is talking about. There are a lot of technical conversations that happen in this forum that go over my head because I can't really visualise it. This is the reason why I am always trying to get people to discuss these videos so that I can associate what is said with what I can see. Unfortunately, these kind of videos are not made unless the maker has something they are passionate about they want to convey (which we may agree or disagree with).

So when life gives you lemons, make lemonade :)
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
The video may not be made for discussion, but for someone like me who is still learning about figure skating it helps much to see what everyone is talking about. There are a lot of technical conversations that happen in this forum that go over my head because I can't really visualise it. This is the reason why I am always trying to get people to discuss these videos so that I can associate what is said with what I can see. Unfortunately, these kind of videos are not made unless the maker has something they are passionate about they want to convey (which we may agree or disagree with).

So when life gives you lemons, make lemonade :)


This reminds me of something I learned in one of my religious studies classes, when writing a book review -- No book is completely useless or without some good quality. In this case, this video does provide a visual means to understand technical content.

It would be nice if ISU made jump videos similar to the ones they did for their program components series. Maybe that's something you can suggest to the ISU. :yes:

My concern for Shoma's jumps is primarily is that his technique could potentially cause more injury in the long run.
 
Top