2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

ice coverage · Oct 22, 2017

GGFan said:
I'm totally willing to concede that I may have high standards. ...

Awww, such false modesty :laugh:

.

GGFan said:
... Was the choreography interesting Phil? Is Nathan showing improvement in the areas of his performance that held him back against the top men last season? Those are the kinds of questions I want to see answered by a sports journalist in an early season report. ...

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed Phil's in-depth reporting and discussion from SLC when Nathan competed there.

- Chen, Aaron go 1-2 in short at U.S. Int'l Classic
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/14/254359642/chen-aaron-go-1-2-in-short-at-us-intl-classic

- Chen powers way to gold in return to Salt Lake City
Aaron takes silver, refers to Chen as "once-in-a-generation type of guy"
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017...owers-way-to-gold-in-return-to-salt-lake-city

- Hersh: Takeaways from U.S. International Classic
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/18/254871804/hersh-takeaways-from-us-international-classic

Mrs. P said:
... And to state the obvious, Nathan has widened his gap on the rest of the U.S. men's field with his win at Rostelecom Cup and, unfortunately, Grant did not make more of a case to be a contender for one of the Olympic spots -- hoping he'll do better in his second event!

Next up: Jason Brown at Skate Canada next weekend.

Congratulations to Nathan

, and hugs to Grant :ghug:

.

And go, Jason :yay:.

GGFan · Oct 22, 2017

ice coverage said:
Awww, such false modesty .

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed Phil's in-depth reporting and discussion from SLC when Nathan competed there.

- Chen, Aaron go 1-2 in short at U.S. Int'l Classic
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/14/254359642/chen-aaron-go-1-2-in-short-at-us-intl-classic

- Chen powers way to gold in return to Salt Lake City
Aaron takes silver, refers to Chen as "once-in-a-generation type of guy"
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017...owers-way-to-gold-in-return-to-salt-lake-city

- Hersh: Takeaways from U.S. International Classic
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/18/254871804/hersh-takeaways-from-us-international-classic

Congratulations to Nathan , and hugs to Grant .

And go, Jason :yay:.

I wasn't trying to be modest, so there was nothing false.

Thanks for sharing the articles. To me it shows that he knew better when he made the asinine comparison. Phil, if Nathan already told you that he's working on the choreography and building up the tech as the season goes why do you need to tell us that he was unremarkable compared to the jumping standard he set last year? The more interesting comparison to last year would be whether his work on the choreography showed by comparing it to last year's free.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 22, 2017

Congrats to Nathan for the win! And beating the reigning World champ is a good start to the season.

It's too bad that it had to happen in Russia though. They buried him on PCS compared to Kolyada.

The fact that he competed in Russia - probably the hardest GP for a non-home-ice skater - and came away with a win is incredible. The judges can try to hold him behind Kolyada on PCS but the jumps will speak (or rather, score) for themselves.

Tavi... · Oct 22, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Congrats to Nathan for the win! And beating the reigning World champ is a good start to the season.

It's too bad that it had to happen in Russia though. They buried him on PCS compared to Kolyada.

The fact that he competed in Russia - probably the hardest GP for a non-home-ice skater - and came away with a win is incredible. The judges can try to hold him behind Kolyada on PCS but the jumps will speak (or rather, score) for themselves.

I don't really get why you think Nathan was buried in PCS? It was nearly 43 in the SP and 88+ in the FS. Those are very good scores, especially this early in the season, and in fact he was only 0.6 behind Kolyada in each segment.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 22, 2017

Tavi... said:
I don't really get why you think Nathan was buried in PCS? It was nearly 43 in the SP and 88+ in the FS. Those are very good scores, especially this early in the season, and in fact he was only 0.6 behind Kolyada in each segment.

The fact that he was behind Kolyada in each segment on PCS (and in the FS he should have been well ahead of Kolyada on PCS) is what I'm primarily alluding to. In the FS, even typical top PCS guys like Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan with 3 falls should have scored less than Chen on PCS. Kolyada got two PCS *personal bests* in spite of a flawed SP and a very flawed FS.

In the SP in particular, Hanyu's PCS with two major errors and Kolyada's PCS with one major error were monstrous. So if the judges were being generous, Chen didn't see any of that. His PCS definitely should have been around 43-44, Kolyada's around 42, and with 2 major errors including a fall, Hanyu shouldn't have been more than 45 (certainly not getting 9.50/9.75).

In the FS Hanyu's PCS was about right, but Kolyada's was insanely high. Nathan by comparison should have scored at least 90 points. The 8.25's were particularly harsh.

Tavi... · Oct 22, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
The fact that he was behind Kolyada in each segment on PCS (and in the FS he should have been well ahead of Kolyada on PCS) is what I'm primarily alluding to. In the FS, even typical top PCS guys like Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan with 3 falls should have scored less than Chen on PCS. Kolyada got two PCS *personal bests* in spite of a flawed SP and a very flawed FS.

In the SP in particular, Hanyu's PCS with two major errors and Kolyada's PCS with one major error were monstrous. So if the judges were being generous, Chen didn't see any of that. His PCS definitely should have been around 43-44, Kolyada's around 42, and with 2 major errors including a fall, Hanyu shouldn't have been more than 45 (certainly not getting 9.50/9.75).

In the FS Hanyu's PCS was about right, but Kolyada's was insanely high. Nathan by comparison should have scored at least 90 points. The 8.25's were particularly harsh.

I don't disagree with you that programs with 2-3 falls shouldn't get super high PCS because the falls are likely to disrupt presentation.

As to Nathan, in the SP he got 42.97, which in my book is 43. I think his presentation has really improved, and that was properly reflected in his SP score. On the other hand, I don't think his presentation or execution in the FS were nearly as good. He did have a few moments of nice facial expression and arm movement, but that doesn't equal great presentation throughout the entire program. And he had visible errors - though not falls - on 3 jumping passes. Yet he still scored 88.40 (which is the equivalent of 44.10 in a SP). So I actually think his FS PCS was a bit generous. To say he deserves 90 is to say his presentation is among the best of all men currently competing, and I just don't think that's true. He still has quite a bit of room for improvement. It's easy to say well the other "top" (i.e. multi-quad) men are getting 90+ for imperfect programs, but I think that's the wrong way to think about it. Rather, I'd say their PCS is also too high, and is tied too closely to TES and/or reputation.

Anyway, JMO.

ManyCairns · Oct 22, 2017

I kind of agree with Canadian Skater Guy re: Kolyada -- but for me it's not so much the expected home ice advantage for this one event, but rather worrying that the possible OVER building up of someone's PCS will start now and carry all the way through to the Olys.

mrrice · Oct 22, 2017

ManyCairns said:
I kind of agree with Canadian Skater Guy re: Kolyada -- but for me it's not so much the expected home ice advantage for this one event, but rather worrying that the possible OVER building up of someone's PCS will start now and carry all the way through to the Olys.

I feel exactly the opposite. I think it will hurt Kolyada in he end. I think it hurt Irina Slutskaya in 2001 at Worlds. Irina had won Nationals, The GPF, and Europeans heading into Worlds. After winning the qualifying round and the SP, she had all the momentum going into the free program. From my seat, both of her big combo's were under rotated. Her first big combo was a 3/sal, 3/loop, 2/toe. If you watch that combination in slow-mo, it was clear that she was short on the sal, and loop. Her jumps were definitely higher than Michelle's but the quality of Michelle's skating was the class of the event. I say this as a Maria Butyrskaya fan....When the free program ended, I thought Michelle was the clear winner.

IMO, it is better for Mikhail not be held up when it's this early in the season. I'm sure his coaches know that he didn't have a great skate in Russia and probably know that he was held up. Mikhail has a ton of talent and I think he knows that he was lucky to beat Misha.

Bluediamonds09 · Oct 22, 2017

Just watching the nbc replay of rostelecom cup. They refused to even mention that Grant skated at all! Didn’t even list his placement. I guess it was an embarrassment.

mrrice · Oct 22, 2017

Bluediamonds09 said:
Just watching the nbc replay of rostelecom cup. They refused to even mention that Grant skated at all! Didn’t even list his placement. I guess it was an embarrassment.

That happens all the time. In most cases, it's only the final flight of skaters that make the broadcast. Now that we have the internet and sites like this one, we know before the event who will be there. When I went to Skate America in 1991, I actually had tickets before I knew who was going to be there. It happened at Skate America in 2012. They didn't show the first flight on TV. It was Rachael Flatt's comeback year but, she skated badly and missed the broadcast.

frida80 · Oct 22, 2017

I spent most of the men’s broad yelling “shut up!” To the TV. I’m kinda glad to watch foreign broadcast instead of NBC.

mrrice · Oct 22, 2017

frida80 said:
I spent most of the men’s broad yelling “shut up!” To the TV. I’m kinda glad to watch foreign broadcast instead of NBC.

Me too......I love listening to Tarasova. Even though I barely understand Russian, I feel the passion from her commentary. I respect Tara but, she's almost like a color "Statistician" Telling us that a skater needs to skate clean is something even the most casual fan already knows. I would really like to see Johnny with someone new. He wasn't everyone's favorite but, I like Michael Weiss. He has a nice balance of technical and performance knowledge and talks about more than just the jumps.

Skatingcat · Oct 22, 2017

I love Nathan Chen's costume (or lack of one). I'm not being distracted by flowy and/or sparkly clothing and get to see the beauty of his skating. It feels artistically pure- he's letting his skating (technical, components and choreography) speak for itself.

I think the simplicity makes him strand from all the other skaters.

After watching him this weekend, I have hopes he'll medal at the olympics.

GGFan · Oct 22, 2017

frida80 said:
I spent most of the men’s broad yelling “shut up!” To the TV. I’m kinda glad to watch foreign broadcast instead of NBC.

Looking back I now realize that the only service the commentators were doing for me for many years was distinguishing between the jumps. Now that I know how to do that myself I love finding a no commentary feed. Once I have digested the program I might seek out the B.ESP or other commentators to see if they have any details to add. I think the general trend in most sports is more talking--that was fine during the radio era but I feel like commentators should train themselves to only talk when they have something to add--it's rarer than most realize.

GGFan · Oct 22, 2017

Skatingcat said:
I love Nathan Chen's costume (or lack of one). I'm not being distracted by flowy and/or sparkly clothing and get to see the beauty of his skating. It feels artistically pure- he's letting his skating (technical, components and choreography) speak for itself.

I think the simplicity makes him strand from all the other skaters.

After watching him this weekend, I have hopes he'll medal at the olympics.

I can get into a simple costume if it is fitted well and is made of nice fabric. I think Nathan could do better on both accounts.

mrrice · Oct 22, 2017

GGFan said:
I can get into a simple costume if it is fitted well and is made of nice fabric. I think Nathan could do better on both accounts.

Me too. I use Alexei Yagudin's Winter costume as an example. It's a simple shirt and pants but it was blinged up in a simple yet, very effective way. Todd Eldredge used to wear shirts that had a beautiful flow to them. In Nathan's case, I doubt they will make a change unless a judge makes a suggestion. I would also suggest that Nathan get "Pit Pads" for his costumes. He has so many arm movements above his head that his pit sweat can be seen by the camera's.

Here's Alexei's SP Costume:http://www.webwinds.com/icechips2002/alexei95125.jpg

Here's Todd: http://www.pluto.dti.ne.jp/~ando3/figureskate/Todd/images/JO2001/todd_fs17_big.jpg

GGFan · Oct 22, 2017

mrrice said:
Me too. I uses Alexei Yagudin's Winter costume as an example. It's a simple shirt and pants but it was blinged up in a simple yet, very effective way. Todd Eldredge used to wear shirts that had a beautiful flow to them. In Nathan's case, I doubt they will make a change unless a judge makes a suggestion.

Here's Alexei's SP Costume:http://www.webwinds.com/icechips2002/alexei95125.jpg

Here's Todd: http://www.pluto.dti.ne.jp/~ando3/figureskate/Todd/images/JO2001/todd_fs17_big.jpg

I'm sending love your way for making me think about Winter. One of my favorite programs ever! He's the perfect example of a legend who didn't do things the classic way (posture, line, etc) but knew how to play to his strengths and had a wonderful sense of style. I always bought into his "experiments" because he committed. Off to Youtube to watch!

padme21 · Oct 22, 2017

I love Nathan's SP however I wasn't completely sold on his FS but I did recognize the music. I later realized it was from the movie that I own and love "Mao's Last Dancer" about a ballet dancer from China. Given Nathan's history in doing ballet it seems fitting for him. I now have a new appreciation for his FS.

el henry · Oct 22, 2017

Bluediamonds09 said:
Just watching the nbc replay of rostelecom cup. They refused to even mention that Grant skated at all! Didn’t even list his placement. I guess it was an embarrassment.

Grant is *never* an embarrassment. But this is the US of A, if you're not top 5, you're just invisible, one way or the other.

Sad that Grant didn't skate well, but his tweets are the best.

"Every season will have its hiccups. Unfortunately, my hiccups were nonstop at this event. I will be much better in China, mark my words!"

And he loved the fan who threw cat toys on the ice for Qiu Qiu #catdad

Proud to be a #catdad? Grant is awesome :love:

TontoK · Oct 22, 2017

Bluediamonds09 said:
Just watching the nbc replay of rostelecom cup. They refused to even mention that Grant skated at all! Didn’t even list his placement. I guess it was an embarrassment.

I think "refused" is a bit harsh. They focused on the most crowd-pleasing, competitive, and otherwise ratings-grabbing performances to include in their coverage. I believe the Shibs winning performance was the only dance included at all, and the pairs coverage was even skimpier. The winners were awarded maybe 20 seconds of airtime under an advertising gimmick.

As far as I can tell, NBC allotted two hours to the event. Men's and lady's last groups took the lion's share. They're catering to their audience.

Grant is not an embarrassment, but let's be honest. His performances here didn't merit airtime on a limited broadcast.

2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605

GGFan

CanadianSkaterGuy

Tavi...

CanadianSkaterGuy

Tavi...

ManyCairns

mrrice

Bluediamonds09

mrrice

frida80

mrrice

Skatingcat

GGFan

GGFan

mrrice

GGFan

padme21

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

TontoK

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