Short Dance Issue

gkelly · May 26, 2017

Oy, I made a long post but somehow I lost it before it posted. Grr!

BTW, until the 1960s or so German was the official language of the ISU.

Some resources you might find useful -- or not so useful, which tells us something about how interested some federations are or aren't in communicating with fans or developing skaters through their websites:

http://www.eislauf-union.de/

http://www.skateaustria.at/
This looks like Austrian equivalent of the US Moves in the Field tests: http://www.skateaustria.at/index.php/lauf-technikklassen.html
The videos of edges and turns in isolation and in simple combinations with the German names might be helpful.

http://www.swissiceskating.ch/de/
There seem to be some Swiss federation rulebook materials here:
http://www.swissiceskating.ch/de/kunstlauf/reglemente/sev
http://www.swissiceskating.ch/de/eistanz/reglemente/sev

Doesn't look very interesting, but it might give some insight into how the sport is run domestically in Switzerland.

Are there active German-language discussion boards about skating?

I tried searching youtube for the few skating-related German words I know.
A German-language how-to series for beginners:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp2y00Wt-7s

There are a lot of instructional videos in English showing beginning and advanced moves. Here are a couple of series that might be useful for associating the English names of the edges and turns with what they look like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzBMKs0sWUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTJgo6r3HSw&t=8s

QuadThrow · May 27, 2017

gkelly said:
Oy, I made a long post but somehow I lost it before it posted. Grr!

BTW, until the 1960s or so German was the official language of the ISU.

Some resources you might find useful -- or not so useful, which tells us something about how interested some federations are or aren't in communicating with fans or developing skaters through their websites:

http://www.eislauf-union.de/

http://www.skateaustria.at/
This looks like Austrian equivalent of the US Moves in the Field tests: http://www.skateaustria.at/index.php/lauf-technikklassen.html
The videos of edges and turns in isolation and in simple combinations with the German names might be helpful.

http://www.swissiceskating.ch/de/
There seem to be some Swiss federation rulebook materials here:
http://www.swissiceskating.ch/de/kunstlauf/reglemente/sev
http://www.swissiceskating.ch/de/eistanz/reglemente/sev

Doesn't look very interesting, but it might give some insight into how the sport is run domestically in Switzerland.

Are there active German-language discussion boards about skating?

I tried searching youtube for the few skating-related German words I know.
A German-language how-to series for beginners:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp2y00Wt-7s

There are a lot of instructional videos in English showing beginning and advanced moves. Here are a couple of series that might be useful for associating the English names of the edges and turns with what they look like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzBMKs0sWUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTJgo6r3HSw&t=8s

Oh wow. Amazing post. I will have a deep look.

Nevertheless this threas was not about how the edges and holds should be. I was asking if the influences of the levels are too much in the SD.

4everchan · May 27, 2017

QuadThrow said:
Oh wow. Amazing post. I will have a deep look.

Nevertheless this threas was not about how the edges and holds should be. I was asking if the influences of the levels are too much in the SD.

not more than the jumps are in the SP.... earn your levels and you are ahead.. .land your jumps and you are ahead...

mess your combo, and you are 10 points behind... lose a few levels and you are 6 points behind...

i have seen tessa and scott live as well... they are SO fast, so precise and so passionate. their SD is especially breathtaking and worlds was better than any other performances of it all year... that's something. The French made two small mistakes... transfer that into pairs, your favourite discipline and two small mistakes against a season's best.. there... explains the point difference. D/R, who aren't your favourite had one small mistake in their SP and ended up way down... lucky for the French they were still in contention with their two small stumbles...

in the FD, they were the best. No doubt about that. But they were too far behind... it happens.. no idea why there is a need to overanalyzed these results ad vitam aeternam....

QuadThrow · May 27, 2017

gkelly said:
Are there active German-language discussion boards about skating?

There is one. But almost noone makes regular posts. Many figure skating fans are people around 60 from the former GDR. I call this the Katarina Witt generation.But these people do not really have a deep understanding of the rules. They watch it because they love it. Most have never heard something like GOE.

I only know three other fans around my age (26) I can discuss with at the same level. But I think their are only around 30 people in Germany who see and understand the Ice dance levels. Maybe less.

QuadThrow · May 27, 2017

4everchan said:
not more than the jumps are in the SP.... earn your levels and you are ahead.. .land your jumps and you are ahead...

mess your combo, and you are 10 points behind... lose a few levels and you are 6 points behind...

i have seen tessa and scott live as well... they are SO fast, so precise and so passionate. their SD is especially breathtaking and worlds was better than any other performances of it all year... that's something. The French made two small mistakes... transfer that into pairs, your favourite discipline and two small mistakes against a season's best.. there... explains the point difference. D/R, who aren't your favourite had one small mistake in their SP and ended up way down... lucky for the French they were still in contention with their two small stumbles...

in the FD, they were the best. No doubt about that. But they were too far behind... it happens.. no idea why there is a need to overanalyzed these results ad vitam aeternam....

Well. The difference is that in pairs skating nine judges giving the GOE and punish usually clearly made mistakes. And there are only two spechialist for Ice Dance dominating almost the whole SD.

I really enjoy you are rooting for meagan and eric. Both grand prix against the Germans. This will be a hard discussion with you next season.

4everchan · May 27, 2017

QuadThrow said:
Well. The difference is that in pairs skating nine judges giving the GOE and punish usually clearly made mistakes. And there are only two spechialist for Ice Dance dominating almost the whole SD.

I really enjoy you are rooting for meagan and eric. Both grand prix against the Germans. This will be a hard discussion with you next season.

yes for D/R : i am happy with their program choices... let's see which throws both teams choose... D/R had a hard time experimenting last year, S/M haven't landed on one foot very often if at all... that for me, will be an element to watch.

back to dance : i disagree... there are always 3 tech panels and 9 judges.... the judges are competent enough to see mistakes that the tech panel see in dance... and often you will see that a twizzle set that only got 3 for level gets less GOE so it works together, just like judges in singles who give higher GOE for quads

it's all related.

I understand your issue with dance but all I can say is that i went from complete ignoramus to average knowledged fan... even perhaps a bit better.... this is what i did :

1) take one element, for instance, twizzles...
2) looked at all the rules to make the difference between levels and GOES..
3) memorized and practiced by looking at different competitions

then... i took the lifts, the spins... etc...

the patterns are harder for us who are not dance specialists... we cannot see if all the edges have been hit. so yes, I rely on the tech panel... but i also trust them because most of the times, i have same levels as they do for other elements... and when I don't, i am finding myself looking at replays and finding out I was wrong LOL

i am sure some judging is iffy.... but why don't we trust it? I find it much easier to trust the judges simply because we cannot change what they have done anyways LOL...

so in light of that : yes... V/M skated BY FAR their best SD ever... and well P/C had mistakes... they were lucky not to end up much lower. In the FD, the stumble V/M had didn't affect an element so it was less costly. P/C won the FD rightfully... but it wasn't enough. I had no issues with the results except for one, B/S would have placed much lower IMHO.

Ender · May 27, 2017

I think the problem is more with FD than with SD. I almost can't distinguish various FD last season.

NanaPat · May 28, 2017

It might help if you think of the levels as something like the number of rotations in a jump. You wouldn't say it's unfair that a quad toe gets a lot more points than a triple toe, would you? And a triple gets a lot more points than a double? They're all the same jump, after all. A level 4 step sequence is a lot harder than a a level 3, and that's why it gets what you describe as "a lot more points".

I was totally blown away by the quality of Virtue/Moyer's non-touch step sequence in the short dance, and my jaw dropped when I saw how many (well-deserved) points it got in the scoring box in the upper-left corner of the screen.

daphenaxa · May 29, 2017

to be fair at worlds I didn't think the short dance was the problem.
Tessa and Scott got their levels and Gabi Guillaume didn't. That can be frustrating because it is difficult to see sometimes why and where but in that case I think the French mistake was quite flagrant as well. But all in all i think Tessa/Scott deserved their lead

For me the problem was in the FD where Tessa and Scott got only 3 points less than P/C with a huge trip that was basically disregarded and some unsteady skating that even Eurosport commentators remarked upon.

If Tessa and Scott deserved a big lead in the short (which they did) then Gabi and Guillaume deserved a big lead in the free, which they didn't get.

4everchan · May 29, 2017

daphenaxa said:
to be fair at worlds I didn't think the short dance was the problem.
Tessa and Scott got their levels and Gabi Guillaume didn't. That can be frustrating because it is difficult to see sometimes why and where but in that case I think the French mistake was quite flagrant as well. But all in all i think Tessa/Scott deserved their lead

For me the problem was in the FD where Tessa and Scott got only 3 points less than P/C with a huge trip that was basically disregarded and some unsteady skating that even Eurosport commentators remarked upon.

If Tessa and Scott deserved a big lead in the short (which they did) then Gabi and Guillaume deserved a big lead in the free, which they didn't get.

we went over that ad nauseam in the competition thread : the difference is that the Gaby and Guillaume made small mistakes that were costly since they were on two elements -losing levels; while Scott had a stumble which looked like a big mistake but was after the element was done.... some judges removed GOE on it, some decided it should be reflected in PCS... however, they didn't lose levels due to when it happened. I'd compare it to someone falling on the final pose of their routine... yes... they will get the mandatory 1 point deduction but it won't affect the score as much as a fall on a step sequence or during the program.

CanadianSkaterGuy · May 29, 2017

Ice dance is all about the details. As spectators, it might not be as easy to identify the turns and steps that judges get the benefit of seeing at ice level and on replays.

Also, V/M have often made the SD their strength and what sets them up for wins. In Vancouver, I liked their FD, but for me, it was their SD performance which set them apart from everyone (including D/W), and what set them up for gold. The problem with P/C is that their SD isn't comfortable for them -- they seem to be more like storytellers who need a full FD to draw in an audience. Their lyrical, contemporary style doesn't suit well in an SD where you need to be precise and exhibit great energy, more than expressive. I want to see them do something a bit more edgy/intense/firey for their SD that will incite them to attack their SD, but I don't know if that's too far outside their comfort zone.

uhh and olayolay said it best. You should read the rulebook if you want a better idea of how levels are scored. My knowledge of ice dance scoring is pretty superficial, but I watch the feet to see where turns and steps might be on the wrong edge, or look for missed holds. It's not like singles/pairs where there are macro errors, so it takes time to identify where ice dance couples go wrong. Of course, a lot of it is subjective too, but then you have to hope that the technical caller is being fair. The same thing happens in singles when it comes to levels on footwork/spins (although level increments are like 0.5, whereas in ice dance it's like 2 points on some elements, so the tech spec has way more sway).

Snow63 · May 29, 2017

While I agree that it's a pretty simple task to memorize features required to get levels from the rulebook for elements like twizzles, spins or lifts, it's totally different for step sequences. Most figure skating fans (ice dance fans included) I know don't know the difference between rocker and counter, or bracket, let alone why some rockers called clean and others not. There's a lot of nuances and not only deep edges define the clean turns. Specialists may call absolutely clean looking rocker wrong just because athlete's weird knee jerk hinted that there was a micro jump. That's why it's especially hard to get the step sequence scoring. A lot of knowledge also comes from personal expirience. For example, only people who skate can say how HARD it is to execute absolutely clean bracket when you're gliding fast even ALONE (without a partner clutching to you in a waltz hold), and where you can cheat to make it look cleanish.

Krunchii · May 29, 2017

QuadThrow said:
Oh wow. Amazing post. I will have a deep look.

Nevertheless this threas was not about how the edges and holds should be. I was asking if the influences of the levels are too much in the SD.

Yes but how can people discuss that if they don't understand how each level is separated and how difficult it is to achieve each requirement? The levels are the technical elements, this is a sport after all, isn't it?

Ice Dance · May 29, 2017

QuadThrow said:
Well. The difference is that in pairs skating nine judges giving the GOE and punish usually clearly made mistakes. And there are only two spechialist for Ice Dance dominating almost the whole SD.

Without the technical callers, we would have almost no movement in ice dance. Reputation & politics would have a far stronger hold on the sport. Almost all the movement that has been gained over the past decade has been led by the technical calling within the sport. The judges' marks have followed behind.

Papadakis & Cizeron's breakthrough at the 2014 Cup of China was a classic example. The levels are where breakthroughs are born.

daphenaxa · May 29, 2017

4everchan said:
we went over that ad nauseam in the competition thread : the difference is that the Gaby and Guillaume made small mistakes that were costly since they were on two elements -losing levels; while Scott had a stumble which looked like a big mistake but was after the element was done.... some judges removed GOE on it, some decided it should be reflected in PCS... however, they didn't lose levels due to when it happened. I'd compare it to someone falling on the final pose of their routine... yes... they will get the mandatory 1 point deduction but it won't affect the score as much as a fall on a step sequence or during the program.

yeah i didn't read the probably very long and very heated arguments after worlds since i was upset about the results and judging so i didn't need to read all the fighting in the comments.
for the stumble saying it was after the element really is in bad faith and frankly it wasn't reflected on the PCS either. You can contradict me, i disagree with you.

anyways, i was replying to the OP's post saying that i didn't think the SP judging was the problem but the Free, i don't really want to argue about who shoulda won etc.

Ender · May 29, 2017

I was there at the arena. V/M skated much more mature than P/C.
I dislike both their FD btw.

peepsquick · May 29, 2017

More mature???
Care to explain ...

Ender · May 29, 2017

peepsquick said:
More mature???
Care to explain ...

Should I say, the rest of dance teams look like children compared to V/M? Just the aura of maturity they have set themselves very much apart. I am not their fan to be honest. I have always been D/W fan.

Mango · May 29, 2017

daphenaxa said:
yeah i didn't read the probably very long and very heated arguments after worlds since i was upset about the results and judging so i didn't need to read all the fighting in the comments.
for the stumble saying it was after the element really is in bad faith and frankly it wasn't reflected on the PCS either. You can contradict me, i disagree with you.

anyways, i was replying to the OP's post saying that i didn't think the SP judging was the problem but the Free, i don't really want to argue about who shoulda won etc.

If the tech panel thought that stumble was part of the step sequence they would have gone down a level. They were at level 3, just like the French. I am not sure what 'bad faith' has to do with that. Their PCS was lower than at other competitions and lower than the French which is why many of us thought that some judges who couldn't reflect the error in their GOEs, because they were finished marking that element when the stumble happened, chose to emphasize it in the PCS.

QuadThrow · May 30, 2017

Krunchii said:
Yes but how can people discuss that if they don't understand how each level is separated and how difficult it is to achieve each requirement? The levels are the technical elements, this is a sport after all, isn't it?

That is why I was asking. I have never said that the system is wrong. But it is quite obvious that the SD is dominated by the levels. The majority of users here support this strong influence.

Short Dance Issue

gkelly

QuadThrow

4everchan

QuadThrow

QuadThrow

4everchan

Ender

Match Penalty

NanaPat

daphenaxa

4everchan

CanadianSkaterGuy

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

Krunchii

Ice Dance

daphenaxa

Ender

Match Penalty

peepsquick

Ender

Match Penalty

Mango

Royal Chinet 👑🍽️

QuadThrow

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