Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons
- Thread starter MaiKatze
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- Nov 29, 2015
Should Olympics be that special? Is someone who had 4, 8, more years of a very successful career but doesn't have an OGM less than the person who managed to hit it at the right time once during the Olympics? I don't think so. We can discuss that one for sure, and as I said, personally I think Olympics are over-rated but it is what it is currently. The pressures are immense to get those medals, and it's not only on the top that this is so, though perhaps arguably that is where it is the greatest.
Anyway, I'd prefer less of a splat-fest but a group of clean programs and if what it takes is repeating programs, go for it. It's still the same people skating, executing numerous very difficult, dangerous elements, we're still seeing their skill in steps, spins, presentation. I prefer seeing this to their maximum ability so if that is easier from their comfort zones, I'm all right with it.
Plus the general audience that tunes in once in four years may actually get to see amazing displays of skill this time, which perhaps might even help skating overall.
Anyway, I'd prefer less of a splat-fest but a group of clean programs and if what it takes is repeating programs, go for it. It's still the same people skating, executing numerous very difficult, dangerous elements, we're still seeing their skill in steps, spins, presentation. I prefer seeing this to their maximum ability so if that is easier from their comfort zones, I'm all right with it.
Plus the general audience that tunes in once in four years may actually get to see amazing displays of skill this time, which perhaps might even help skating overall.
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- May 20, 2015
I think it make sense to repeat SPs. Yes, it's a program and theirs should be artistry, but the focus is hitting the required elements. I understand that a skater/pair would want to report a SP for comfort reasons, especially if they want to use more difficult elements the next season.
I don´t have any problem with skaters repeating their programs. Fernandez repeated his sp in 2016-2017 and in WC 2017 he managed to skate it to its full potential, and that was great!!!
Actually, I have to admit that I don´t remember skaters´ programs that well, unless I watch them repeatedly A LOT of times. If I do that and the program becomes really familiar (or too familiar) I cannot blame skaters if they happen to repeat that particular program,
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Actually, I have to admit that I don´t remember skaters´ programs that well, unless I watch them repeatedly A LOT of times. If I do that and the program becomes really familiar (or too familiar) I cannot blame skaters if they happen to repeat that particular program,
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- Apr 21, 2014
It may be over-rated in our opinion but for the athletes who trained year in year out this is their aim considering it was place in every 4 years and it is the time when the general audience outside Figure skating actually tune in to watch. Compared to World etc which held every year. So if the athletes felt they need a program they most comfortable with to perform their best then there's nothing wrong to proceed with that.
Btw I am always a little bit insulted when people use the words lazy as possibilities to justify athletes decision in anything when they work their butt off to achieve the best in their sports. Just to be called lazy because they decided to keep their program.
IMO keeping program could mean as some already said to increase quality and consistency also to give more time to polish the other new programs.
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- Apr 21, 2014
Agreed with pretty much all of this. True, We have to remember this is first and foremost sports and not entertainment. Perhaps we can focus on exhibition program to be entertain.
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- Jun 11, 2012
Good thread.
I don't think it's laziness. In some cases it could be money. Or in some cases it could be time. There are only a handful of super good choreographers and their time is limited. The biggest reason I can think of is that maybe the skater and his or her team feels they haven't milked the program for all it's worth. In other words, the skater can take it to a different level. Perhaps last year they just went through the choreo and this year they want more emotion in it.
I have to agree with Nika09 though - TangoDeRoxanne is just ear pain to me anymore. It's fast getting up there with Carmen and Swan Lake on my hate list.
So having said that - I'm thinking that it depends on whether I like the music or not and want to listen to it multiple times through Grand Prix, nationals, worlds and Olympics. Shallow of me perhaps but when the music is discordant to me for any number of reasons I get lost in my dislike of it and forget to watch the skater.
I don't think it's laziness. In some cases it could be money. Or in some cases it could be time. There are only a handful of super good choreographers and their time is limited. The biggest reason I can think of is that maybe the skater and his or her team feels they haven't milked the program for all it's worth. In other words, the skater can take it to a different level. Perhaps last year they just went through the choreo and this year they want more emotion in it.
I have to agree with Nika09 though - TangoDeRoxanne is just ear pain to me anymore. It's fast getting up there with Carmen and Swan Lake on my hate list.
So having said that - I'm thinking that it depends on whether I like the music or not and want to listen to it multiple times through Grand Prix, nationals, worlds and Olympics. Shallow of me perhaps but when the music is discordant to me for any number of reasons I get lost in my dislike of it and forget to watch the skater.
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- Feb 24, 2014
If we keep remembering, I think we can come up with additional examples where it didn't work out. It surely doesn't if the skater isn't at the same condition and level of consistency as when they debuted the program—recently that happened with Rika Hongo bringing back Riverdance and Alaine Chartrand bringing back Sway. Those were fantastic programs, but they couldn't recapture the magic. Up until Worlds, Javi's Malaguena was not sparkling the way it did the season before. It helped him there, but I don't think that program got better over time.
In the end, it is the performance level that sells the program or not. The hope is that a familiar program raises the performance level, but that's not inevitable.
And I thought it was a generally agreed upon rule of thumb not to bring the program back if it had been skated to its full potential. If the skater was injured or the season interrupted or cut short, it makes sense to keep it. Fans would love it if Satoko Miyahara kept her LP, even though it seems she won't. Clearly the recycling this year has reached a critical mass where fs fans are sick of it and rebelling by complaining. At least, speaking for myself that's the case. Good for the four-year fans who can enjoy things for the first time, but I'm underwhelmed already.
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- Feb 16, 2014
You are the one making assumptions when I didn't even mention any names. I didn't want to go there, but in fact, Javier was one skater I was talking about. And I happen to like him a lot as a person and an athlete, but I'm bored to death with him the past couple seasons. I'm sick of Chaplin programs in general after seeing so many of them in juniors every season, & I just feel like a 2-time world champion should be able to do better than this. Try to show a little bit of range. He HAS shown it, in his gala programs like Touch of Evil. In his case, I do think it comes down to laziness. Oh well.
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- Mar 20, 2013
I prefer new, innovative programs but that's not always possible.
In recent years, some skaters have spent enormous resources on new programs, hiring new choreographers, etc. but the results were dismal. There's nothing worse than an apathetic, polite applause from the audience.
So I understand if they want to recycle their most successful program if only to get the best results possible.
Petrenko's Carmen was recycled several seasons but he kept improving the program - still possibly one of the greatest Carmens in the history of FS. A work of art isn't set in stone but evolves over time. Artur Dmitriev and his partners recycled their programs to great success, but they changed their costumes, choreographies, creative moves, and technical content so it didn't seem old. I found the changes they made just as fascinating as new programs. Almost like a totally new way of interpreting the same program.
In recent years, some skaters have spent enormous resources on new programs, hiring new choreographers, etc. but the results were dismal. There's nothing worse than an apathetic, polite applause from the audience.
So I understand if they want to recycle their most successful program if only to get the best results possible.
Petrenko's Carmen was recycled several seasons but he kept improving the program - still possibly one of the greatest Carmens in the history of FS. A work of art isn't set in stone but evolves over time. Artur Dmitriev and his partners recycled their programs to great success, but they changed their costumes, choreographies, creative moves, and technical content so it didn't seem old. I found the changes they made just as fascinating as new programs. Almost like a totally new way of interpreting the same program.
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- Feb 24, 2014
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- Mar 20, 2013
And I thought that was one of the most infamous examples of program overkill
Early 90s had many recycled programs due to the breakup of the former USSR and skaters' lack of resources.
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- Jan 10, 2017
The title of the post is about the pros and cons of recycling (it's good for the planet!), so I've tried making a bit of a list:
PROS
CONS
What did I miss?
PROS
- Comfort level with a program that might allow for better refining and/or consistency;
- Programs that were popular before will likely be popular again with the casual audiences, especially in a season where many casual fans will tune in for one particular competition;
- Allows for more time to be spent in the other program and developing/refining new tech;
- Doesn't cost as many resources (human, monetary);
- Sometimes a program just didn't reach its full potential for varied reasons (skater was injured for part of the season and/or didn't skate it clean);
- Some recycling involves a facelift, with some different touches or choreography;
- The Olympics might have slightly less of a chance of being a splatfest?
CONS
- In the case of programs already skated to their full potential at the time, it can be hard to re-capture the thrill;
- Similarly, if a program has been skated consistently well before, there's sort of a requirement to do so again; (these two first points actually represent a risk to the skater)
- Not as much variety in programs in a skater's career (though this doesn't necessarily mean lack of versatility, IMHO);
- Perception of laziness on the part of the skaters for 'taking the easy path' of not learning new programs (personal note: not that I agree);
- Fans who've followed the sport and/or specific skaters, will likely be disappointed for not having the possibility of seeing new programs from their favorites;
- It can get boring for commentators and fans that have been following the sport for multiple seasons, but maybe not so much the judges who'll have to endure multiple programs for hours anyway, so what if they're repeated, everything begins to blend after a while;
What did I miss?
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- Jan 23, 2004
I like to see 2 new programs and I always am a little disappointed when I read the news of my favorites reusing programs. But at the end of the day
it does not really matter to me. I will be still rooting and cheering them on!
it does not really matter to me. I will be still rooting and cheering them on!
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- Feb 24, 2014
Practically speaking, I think it kind of does. Fewer programs means skaters display less versatility than they would with new and varied ones. But versatility isn't a primary goal for most skaters. Discovering one or even two styles they do well is hard enough.
I'm disappointed and it takes away a little bit of enjoyment and excitement. We see programs during a season so often, I don't want to see them for another season, even if they are masterpieces.
This may be okay, if you're a casual fan and only tap in during worlds, but I watch all the GP's and some senior B's, as well as Europeans and 4cc and Worlds, so seeing those programs for the 6th time (and some I rewatched so it's even more often) is just boring.
Coming up with two different new program's used to be seen as to broaden one's repertoire, but not anymore. I couldn't stand it, when Patrick started reusing one of his programs every season, and I can't believe the PCS Medvedeva gets for literally the same choreography just to different music and I'm not a fan of Javi, Yuzu and Shoma's decision to repeat their programs for next season.
This may be okay, if you're a casual fan and only tap in during worlds, but I watch all the GP's and some senior B's, as well as Europeans and 4cc and Worlds, so seeing those programs for the 6th time (and some I rewatched so it's even more often) is just boring.
Coming up with two different new program's used to be seen as to broaden one's repertoire, but not anymore. I couldn't stand it, when Patrick started reusing one of his programs every season, and I can't believe the PCS Medvedeva gets for literally the same choreography just to different music and I'm not a fan of Javi, Yuzu and Shoma's decision to repeat their programs for next season.
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- Nov 24, 2006
And I thought that was one of the most infamous examples of program overkill
My feelings are mixed. Repeating once doesn't bother me that much, but THREE seasons???? Lol at the Petrenko reference! How many people cringed when Petrenko started that LP and you heard the first eight notes???? Like, GOD, NOT AGAIN!!! Peggy Fleming used that LP for three seasons too.
Also, if someone performed a program to its maximum (Ashley and her Moulin Rouge for example) to a point where you probably won't recapture the magic of that moment, it really is a letdown. And let's not be naïve, sure skaters are skating to the audience, most that don't even know their names, but guess what? It's a judged sport, and the judges are part of that audience too. It would be kind of hard I would think to judge the same program year in and year out and get excited about it especially if the Oly performance doesn't live up to previous years.
I am probably one of few who really liked Butyrskaya's Swan Lake, and I thought she should have repeated it for 2002 instead of repeating "17 Moments of Boring". Like a poster said above, Weir's Otonal was a total dud when he repeated it for 2006.
So I guess my opinion is that I am very much in favor of new programs than reused ones with only a few exceptions.
Honestly, how can you not cherry pick with this. Many people have made many valid points for both Pro and Con and I don't mean to be dismissing those. However, so some extent I think anyone could get excited to see a program they liked re-used or get upset when a program they hated does. And it might even be just the music that does it, since everyone's taste in music differs. (As an aside, I would personally fine it difficult as a judge to be objective if a skater was using music I truly disliked.)
As for laziness, that is probably not the case is most situations. Personally, I think it would only be lazy if you re-use both programs. (The exception being a situation like Polina Edmunds because she didn't get to compete with last seasons programs, so she is keeping them.) Last season I thought at first Ross Miner had actually done this. (In reality, he replaced one Queen medley with a different Queen medley for his LP.) Even then I wasn't thinking laziness; it just left me with the impression that his heart just wasn't in it anymore. And liked the music, so it wasn't that.
As for laziness, that is probably not the case is most situations. Personally, I think it would only be lazy if you re-use both programs. (The exception being a situation like Polina Edmunds because she didn't get to compete with last seasons programs, so she is keeping them.) Last season I thought at first Ross Miner had actually done this. (In reality, he replaced one Queen medley with a different Queen medley for his LP.) Even then I wasn't thinking laziness; it just left me with the impression that his heart just wasn't in it anymore. And liked the music, so it wasn't that.
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- Jan 10, 2017
Just because you're not displaying new programs every single year doesn't mean you're not versatile. Recycling doesn't necessarily prevent you from experimenting in other programs or other seasons or having an overall program repertoire that shows different genres and styles. Also, you could very well do a new program every single year and still stick to a particular comfortable range or genre, and that wouldn't make you any more versatile than someone who has recycled some programs but shown many different genres in their other offerings.
This, of course, doesn't prevent fans from hoping their favorites would have more programs in their careers. It's okay to be disappointed they don't. I am, but I've also made my peace with the need to save the planet.
Edited to add: People can also have different ideas of what constitutes versatility (or *enough* versatility), so neither thought is wrong, I think. Depends on the person and what they want to see and/or what they're ready to tolerate.
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- Mar 23, 2014
I also think there's an overall lack of appreciation for skaters who only work within one or two major genres but show incredible range within that genre. Javier might only ever do lighthearted character pieces, but the shades of difference between Sinatra, Elvis, and Chaplin show a marvelous grasp of nuance and complexity. When other skaters take on lighthearted character pieces, they simply don't have the depth and nuance that Javier does. And that's okay, because different skaters are great at different things. But if you think that all of Javier's programs are the same, you aren't watching closely. Moving like Elvis is similar to moving like Charlie Chaplin? Not in a million years.
(Could be the case for P/C as well - though I really have no idea how their programs are so samey as they've been accused of being. The music and emotion is so different in each one, IMO, but I know others feel differently.)
(Could be the case for P/C as well - though I really have no idea how their programs are so samey as they've been accused of being. The music and emotion is so different in each one, IMO, but I know others feel differently.)
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