Developing interest in Ice Dance?

4everchan said:

i agree with what someone wrote in here...

when i went to my first live event, i was amazed at the speed and skills even the lowest dance team had compared to single skaters (of course the top single skaters were great too) and i think that to see the intricacy of ice dance steps and patterns, at such speed gives it another perspective for a viewer who wouldn't grasp that on tv or online...

i was in for a treat as i went to ACI and saw V/M's FD of this year.... it was mesmerizing...

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The Shibs said seeing the ice dancers at 2003 Worlds was one of the reasons they got into ice dance. They were impressed with the skating skills and speed of the dancers.

Bluediamonds09 said:

I am definitely interested in ice dance! But I have no idea how it works!! I know what a curve lift is, and I know what twizzles are, but basically nothing else. And the olympics are approaching. So, does anyone know of a YouTube video explaining basic knowledge of ice dance? Like, what makes a good pattern dance? how to tell if a team is doing difficult moves or not? What's the rotational lift? What's the difference between a level 3 step sequence and a level 4? Etc etc etc......
With the olympics coming I'd really like to understand the scoring.
Thanks

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This website is a great resource:

http://www.ice-dance.com/site/

Check out the reference section for a detailed written explanation of all pattern dances, ice dance terms, holds, etc. There's even a history of what rhythms were prescribed in season's past.

U.S. ice dancers Kseniya and Oleg have a great number of videos teaching basic skating and ice dance steps. Some of their videos break down the compulsory/pattern dances as well. I learned a lot from watching their videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/kseniyaOleg

I honest love watching 80s and 90s compulsory videos because I think there's so much clarity to the steps and pattern in the top teams' execution back then that we can see what the steps are supposed to look like.

Here is a series of video tutorials for the cumpulsory/pattern dances that even has illustrations of the pattern and what skaters are supposed to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRxHXjRwwNY&list=PLpjA5VAc6bWPy040nGAd57DK49NUdmKre

It doesn't have every pattern, but it's useful.

Here is what the Midnight Blues was supposed to look like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuuqT7Vshps&index=3&list=PLpjA5VAc6bWPy040nGAd57DK49NUdmKre

You can compare it to this past season's SDs where they only did the beginning.

Here's the Ravensburger Waltz pattern and you can compare it to the 2015-2016 SDs of the top teams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8c8Pd6bgw0&index=13&list=PLpjA5VAc6bWPy040nGAd57DK49NUdmKre

Check out a very young Virtue/Moir showing off the proper hold in the Golden Waltz video, considered to be one of the most if not the most difficult of all the pattern dances because it's incredibly complex both in the blade work and in the changes holds. It was invented by Natalia Dubova and 1992 Olympic Champions Marina Klimova/Sergei Ponomarenko (my personal favorite ice dance team of all time, especially their more traditional stuff before 1990-1991) as K/P's Original Set Pattern (the precursor to the original dance, which was the precursor to the short dance) for the 1986-1987 season where they won the OSP portion of 1987 Worlds. It was last prescribed at the 2010-2011 season and the SDs were very long that season because they did an entire pattern.

This post has become long, but let me know if you want to see some videos of compulsories I like from the past.

I would recommend newcomers to watch top 3 or 5 programs performed at any Olympics which worked for me really well.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

Former lower-level ice dancers Kseniya and Oleg

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Lower ranked senior ice dancers


Good suggestions for resources

gkelly said:

Lower ranked senior ice dancers


Good suggestions for resources

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Whoops! You're right about the phrasing. I'm going to edit that now and just put U.S. ice dancers.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

The Shibs said seeing the ice dancers at 2003 Worlds was one of the reasons they got into ice dance. They were impressed with the skating skills and speed of the dancers.



This website is a great resource:

http://www.ice-dance.com/site/

Check out the reference section for a detailed written explanation of all pattern dances, ice dance terms, holds, etc. There's even a history of what rhythms were prescribed in season's past.

U.S. ice dancers Kseniya and Oleg have a great number of videos teaching basic skating and ice dance steps. Some of their videos break down the compulsory/pattern dances as well. I learned a lot from watching their videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/kseniyaOleg

I honest love watching 80s and 90s compulsory videos because I think there's so much clarity to the steps and pattern in the top teams' execution back then that we can see what the steps are supposed to look like.

Here is a series of video tutorials for the cumpulsory/pattern dances that even has illustrations of the pattern and what skaters are supposed to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRxHXjRwwNY&list=PLpjA5VAc6bWPy040nGAd57DK49NUdmKre

It doesn't have every pattern, but it's useful.

Here is what the Midnight Blues was supposed to look like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuuqT7Vshps&index=3&list=PLpjA5VAc6bWPy040nGAd57DK49NUdmKre

You can compare it to this past season's SDs where they only did the beginning.

Here's the Ravensburger Waltz pattern and you can compare it to the 2015-2016 SDs of the top teams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8c8Pd6bgw0&index=13&list=PLpjA5VAc6bWPy040nGAd57DK49NUdmKre

Check out a very young Virtue/Moir showing off the proper hold in the Golden Waltz video, considered to be one of the most if not the most difficult of all the pattern dances because it's incredibly complex both in the blade work and in the changes holds. It was invented by Natalia Dubova and 1992 Olympic Champions Marina Klimova/Sergei Ponomarenko (my personal favorite ice dance team of all time, especially their more traditional stuff before 1990-1991) as K/P's Original Set Pattern (the precursor to the original dance, which was the precursor to the short dance) for the 1986-1987 season where they won the OSP portion of 1987 Worlds. It was last prescribed at the 2010-2011 season and the SDs were very long that season because they did an entire pattern.

This post has become long, but let me know if you want to see some videos of compulsories I like from the past.

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Thanks. I still have questions if you don't mind...
1) what makes a good step sequence? How do u score high on that?
2) how do u know if one of the lifts is difficult and high scoring? There's such a difference in technical scores between teams!!
3) what is it about the Russian ice dance teams that some people say isn't good? Are they not doing something right? Is the tech score high and the PCS low?
4) what made the shibitanis score low in the 2017 Worlds short dance?

Bluediamonds09 said:

Thanks. I still have questions if you don't mind...
1) what makes a good step sequence? How do u score high on that?
2) how do u know if one of the lifts is difficult and high scoring? There's such a difference in technical scores between teams!!

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I can give you links to some documents that answer those questions in technical detail.

There are two ways that dance teams earn points for technical elements such as step sequences and lifts: 1) base value of the element, which primarily reflects the difficulty; 2) the grade of execution, which primarily reflects quality.

For difficulty/base values, the technical panel identifies what kind of step sequence, lift, etc., the team executed and also assigns a level based on how many features the skaters achieved.

I'm linking to the 2017-18 documents via the US Figure Skating website because the organization is a little easier for me to work with, but you can also find these documents on the ISU website or some other national federations' sites, etc.

ID requirements for technical rules

Handbook for Technical Panels - Ice Dancing

Each level of each type of element has a predefined point value as listed in the Scale of Values

So the teams who successfully attempted more difficult elements start out with higher base values.

For quality, the judges determine their grades of execution (GOEs) for each element according to this marking guide

You probably don't want to dig too deeply into the specifics to start out with -- these documents are very technical. But if you skim through you can get an idea of the kinds of things that tech panels look at to determine the levels and therefore the base point value of the elements, and the kinds of things that judges look at to determine the GOEs.

(Then the judges also award program component scores for various aspects of the program as a whole, but that's separate from the questions you're asking here.)

Bobrova/Soloviev's 'A Man with a Harmonica', a modern classic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1srxrX-8n_M

Bobrova/Soloviev's 'Anna Karenina', a Russian classic :luv17:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt1WXIah7Dw

And tons of dances posted above, there's so many great dances even now OMG

So, just reading the rules on the webpage isn't very helpful, but I'm glad I have something, at least. So thanks. But to all the ice dance fans out there who understand what to look for when a program is being performed: what do I look out for? I'm still trying to figure out why some teams are marked higher than others. HELP!

Bluediamonds09 said:

So, just reading the rules on the webpage isn't very helpful, but I'm glad I have something, at least. So thanks. But to all the ice dance fans out there who understand what to look for when a program is being performed: what do I look out for? I'm still trying to figure out why some teams are marked higher than others. HELP!

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The first step is being able to recognize all the steps and turns and identify them. I struggle with this. That's the only way you can tell what the ice dancers are attempting to do. Then you watch the blade and see if they do it cleanly. I find that even the most knowledgeable ice dance fans have trouble with that. We also do not have the same camera angles that the callers have. You can also look at depth of edge, ice coverage during the sequence, etc. Things like GOE are bulleted and you can see what they're looking for. Sometimes one's visceral lay reaction is the right one. Like if you see a step sequence that is done with lots of conviction, speed, and extra dance moves and fully body movement, seamless transition of holds, etc. then you probably know it will receive high GOEs compared to another team where they do the same amount of turns but are more hesitant, don't really dance throughout, and look like they're just concentrating on completing the pattern. Maybe watch V/M's "Prince" SD and a lower ranked team at Worlds (I'm talking ranked 11th or lower) and watch both teams complete their elements one-by-one to get that sense. As for the differentiation between the top teams, a lot of it is subjective and a lot of it is the judges using their best judgment in awarding GOEs and PCS. Some argue that the callers are also not quite as objective, but we are asked to trust their calls in good faith.

It's just a matter of watching different step sequences and seeing the scores, and re-watching them until you get a sense of what a good step sequence looks like. Luckily, ice dance teams are going for long, sweeping edges in their footwork these days because the teams realize calls matter and they want to make sure the caller sees them execute their steps and turns correctly, and the GOE differentials among the teams are so close and bunched up that they don't exist as they used to anymore where a team could afford a loss of a level and make it up in GOE and PCS against another competitor.

In general...

There are three sources of scores:

Base values (levels) determined by the technical panel: What element did the team perform, how many extra features did they attempt, and did they perform them well enough to get credit for the attempt? For example, if a certain number of different kinds of turns are required for a step sequence, and the skaters change edge before a turn or don't hold the exit edge or make the edges too shallow to be clear what edge they're on, they won't get credit for it. If a lift or spin position requires a certain angle of the free leg or skating knee and they don't quite achieve that angle, they won't get credit. And of course if they make outright mistakes that prevent them from completing what they attempted at all, they won't get credit.

Some teams don't attempt the hardest elements because they think they're better off doing something simpler that they're more likely to execute well.

In the Short Dance, part of the dance is a set pattern in which every team has to execute the exact same steps with the same timing. There are usually "key points" related to some of the trickier skills in that pattern. The technical determines whether each team did or did not achieve each of those key points. If not, they don't get full credit.

Grade of execution: Judges each independently determine how well the skaters executed each element. Some of what they're looking at is technical, including details like body line, extension, unison, and some of it is how well the technical element matches or enhances the music. They give positive scores for the good qualities and reduce the GOEs for errors or weak qualities.

Program components scores:
There are separate scores for
Skating Skills
Transitions
Performance
Composition
Interpretation of the Music/Timing

Skating Skills and Interpretation/Timing are especially important in ice dance compared with freestyle disciplines.

Ice Dancing also has more detailed guidelines on how each score for each component is defined:
http://usfigureskating.org/content/2016-17 ID Marking Guide for PCS for SD and FD updated 200716.pdf

In general, for Skating Skills judges will look at how effortlessly the skaters move across the ice, how much ice they can cover with each stroke (power, and depth of edge), steadiness of the edges, precision of foot placement. More credit for teams who skate closer together, and with their feet closer together (which is much more difficult and risky than skating far apart), without tripping each other.

In Interpretation/Timing, it's very important in the Short Dance to get the steps of the required pattern dance exactly on the right time. In general, reflecting the style of the music especially in the SD with specific dance styles is important, and so is skating to the rhythm of the music.

And they'll always be looking at unison and equal balance of skills between the partners.

And one thing that gets talked about a lot in dance especially is speed, which is often less clear over video than live, just like for other disciplines. So sometimes you have to rely on commentators or fans who can see it live to get a good idea, though, for example I showed my father who doesn't know skating much videos of some of the top dance teams, and it was clear to him that V/M were the fastest, etc, which matches what I see and have heard from commentators. Speed matters during the patterns, because it goes hand in hand with greater ice coverage - if you do the same pattern in the same amount of time, then speed = bigger patterns. For example, one of the things I heard several skating people talk about when it comes to the difference between the Shibs and the top two teams, is that the Shibs skate with less abandon. Obviously that's subjective and some of their fans would disagree, but one reason people say that is that they apparently (according to commentators and this is what I see in videos as well) skate a bit slower (no top team is actually slow) and do smaller patterns, which is a little safer, less likely to lead to mistakes, but for that reason less impressive. From what I've heard, Madi and Zach (H/D) skater faster, more on the edge, but also make more mistakes than the Shibs. Obviously the Shibs are a really good team, I just think it's a good example of some of the more subtle differences.

SnowWhite said:

And one thing that gets talked about a lot in dance especially is speed, which is often less clear over video than live, just like for other disciplines. So sometimes you have to rely on commentators or fans who can see it live to get a good idea, though, for example I showed my father who doesn't know skating much videos of some of the top dance teams, and it was clear to him that V/M were the fastest, etc, which matches what I see and have heard from commentators. Speed matters during the patterns, because it goes hand in hand with greater ice coverage - if you do the same pattern in the same amount of time, then speed = bigger patterns. For example, one of the things I heard several skating people talk about when it comes to the difference between the Shibs and the top two teams, is that the Shibs skate with less abandon. Obviously that's subjective and some of their fans would disagree, but one reason people say that is that they apparently (according to commentators and this is what I see in videos as well) skate a bit slower (no top team is actually slow) and do smaller patterns, which is a little safer, less likely to lead to mistakes, but for that reason less impressive. From what I've heard, Madi and Zach (H/D) skater faster, more on the edge, but also make more mistakes than the Shibs. Obviously the Shibs are a really good team, I just think it's a good example of some of the more subtle differences.

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Have you tried to make a trace of their skating? I did it with their FD (V/M, P/C and S/S), Maia and Alex had the greater ice coverage, at worst is the same.
And it was very obvious in the pattern of the SD too.

chapis said:

Have you tried to make a trace of their skating? I did it with their FD (V/M, P/C and S/S), Maia and Alex had the greater ice coverage, at worst is the same.
And it was very obvious in the pattern of the SD too.

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What? The Shibs blues pattern was clearly the smallest of those three teams. And not a little bit smaller too, but smaller by FAR.

olayolay said:

What? The Shibs blues pattern was clearly the smallest of those three teams. And not a little bit smaller too, but smaller by FAR.

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no way, especially compared with P/C.

Bluediamonds09 said:

So, just reading the rules on the webpage isn't very helpful, but I'm glad I have something, at least. So thanks. But to all the ice dance fans out there who understand what to look for when a program is being performed: what do I look out for? I'm still trying to figure out why some teams are marked higher than others. HELP!

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You just need to follow ice dance, tht's all. With time you'll see the difference. Also, youtube has slow-motion replays for every video, just make an effort and you'll see that the turns are really different (from inside edge to inside edge, from inside edge to outside edge, clockwise and counter-clockwise, inside the circle or outside the circle etc.). There's also steps where skaters transfer their weight from one foot to the other (from edge to an edge). You should easily see a 3-turn, it's a simple step, for example, and it looks like a skater makes a '3'-shaped trace on the ice when skater glides on the edge of the blade and turns inside the circle he/she moves without the help of the other foot and the edge changes (inside to outside, or outside to inside).

Look: https://youtu.be/NvIk-R2VNbg?t=2m2s Here Madison Chock execute 3-turn as transitional element. It's a 'right-forward-outside to right-backward-inside' type of three turn (RFO-RBI) performed as a transition, really simple step.

And here's another one: https://youtu.be/NvIk-R2VNbg?t=3m8s She does 'right-forward-inside to right-backward-outside' type of three turn (RFI-RBO) performed right from assisted jump as a transition into the twizzles.

Look at these at 0.25x speed until you clearly see the difference. Then try to look for similar steps. It's pretty simple. Then you can move to other type of steps and turns. I cn help with examples if you want.

Here's a reference thread I started a few years ago identifying the basic edges and turns. I hope most of the links still work.

Please help me to develop my interest in dance by telling her name.
http://cdn.trinixy.ru/pics4/20091111/female_sports_uniforms_52.jpg

tars said:

Please help me to develop my interest in dance by telling her name.
http://cdn.trinixy.ru/pics4/20091111/female_sports_uniforms_52.jpg

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Tanith Belbin, her partner was Benjamin Agosto.

Let's hope Charlie White isn't eying this thread :scard7:

Sam-Skwantch said:

Let's hope Charlie White isn't eying this thread :scard7:

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and let me think... is this your hope for latin SD costumes this year?