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Thread: 2017 Japan Open

  1. #361
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    What people complain about is not that Ukraine, Belarus, etc. are part of Russia, or owe allegiance to Russia, or even like Russians very much.

    It is rather that for quite a few years after the breakup of the Soviet Union, the figure skating establishments of those countries continued to be run by coaches and officials that were part of the whole "Russian" figure skating edifice. Many were in fact ethnic Russians and many more trained in Russia or by Russians and remained on friendly terms with the Piseev oligarchy. Plus, they were trained to appreciate the "Russian style" of skating (whatever that means, exactly), especially in pairs and ice dance.

    Over the years this Russo-centricity among Eastern European figure skating federations has weakened, as new people rise to positions of influence in various countries.
    I was not talking abour ex USSR (East Slavs), but about other Slavic countries. E: People from other Slavic countries may have similiar names but no connections with Russia at all, in terms of heritage or history. Many of them never lived among Russian people, nor in Russian's country. So, you cant claim by people's names there are Russians (or East Slavs)! In some of those Slavic countries I never heard of words such as 'russian style of skating' or any other country style of skating, nor that yours 'cold war narrative' was ever a big deal to begin with... Also, the fact is that many of those Russians went to America, so i dont see the point...

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think it's a huge oversimplification to imply that European judges will always, or even statistically preferentially, favor European skaters over skaters from North America and Asia.

    Consider the 2002 Olympic pairs fiasco. Why was everyone angry about the French judge, particularly, when she was only one of five that put Berezhnaya and Sikharudlize over Sale and Pelletier? The reason is that as soon as the judging panels had been chosen, months before, "everybody knew" that there were two voting blocks in play.

    Russia, China, Poland and and Ukraine would vote for B&S. USA, Canada, Germany and Japan would vote for S&P.

    That much was a given. So the contest would be decided by the French judge, who could go either way (that is, Didier Gailhaguet could go either way). Wooing of Marie-Reine Le Gougne by both sides reportedly was underway at least by October, 2001. Did Russia offer a better deal than Canada? We will never know. But anyway, no one could say, well, France is a European country, so naturally this give B&S the edge.

    Too bad Jamie Sale was from Calgary (English-speaking) rather than Montreal (French-speaking). Maybe that would have tipped tyhe balance.
    Too bad, Jamie Sale and her partner were boring on ice. But the worst is they did not act fairly. Anyone remember she crashed into Anton interntionally? S/P's poor sportmanship was enough to not deserve the OGM.

  3. #363
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    ... i dont see the point...
    You don't? I will try to be more clear. I was trying to explain why many skating fans in the West still get nervous, even in this day and age, when they see judging panels with a lot of Eastern European countries represented. To be sure, people all over the world might have Russian-sounding names -- there are millions in the United Staes alone.

    As for the "cold war narrative," this was indeed a huge deal in all Olympic sports. In 1980 the USA boycotted the Moscow summer games because we were mad at Russia. In 1984 the Soviet Union boycotted the Los Angeles games just to get even. In figure skating, bloc judging along ideological lines became so bad that the entire Soviet skating federation was banned from judging any ISU skating event for a year. This was regarded as a much bigger deal than just "how many European nations are represented."

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlotte14 View Post
    ... S/P's poor sportmanship was enough to not deserve the OGM.
    That is probably why the French judge joined Russia, China, Poland and Ukraine to give the title to Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze.

    Looking back over the years, I think the consensus is that B&S really were the superior team. (Sorry, Canada.) By the way, if you want to see what is meant by the "Russian style" of pairs skating, compare the "balletic" B&S with the no frills style of S&P's Love Story. (Sorry -- I know we are not supposed to say "balletic" or "artistic" for such a philistine discipline as figure skating. )

  5. #365
    I believe in my predictions Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That is probably why the French judge joined Russia, China, Poland and Ukraine to give the title to Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze.

    Looking back over the years, I think the consensus is that B&S really were the superior team. (Sorry, Canada.) By the way, if you want to see what is meant by the "Russian style" of pairs skating, compare the "balletic" B&S with the no frills style of S&P's Love Story. (Sorry -- I know we are not supposed to say "balletic" or "artistic" for such a philistine discipline as figure skating. )
    B/S were great and artistic but I don’t think they were balletic.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    It is difficult to get a judging panel without too obvious preferences, but this was way too much, in my opinion:

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/SEG004OF.HTM

    6-7 persons with a Russian name..., ROTFL! Unfortunately Baranova represented my country. I have heard that she went and hugged Sotnikova after the win was clear, which does not sound right behaviour, in my opinion.
    Since there seems to be interest in which countries were actually represented by the judges with "Russian-sounding names," here they are:

    Balkov -- Ukraine
    Kulik -- Estonia
    Shekhovtsova -- Russia
    Domansk -- Slovakia

    Technical controler: Lakernik -- Russia
    Assistant technical specialist: Baranova -- Finland

    The other judges represented Germany, Italy, France, Japan, and Canada, and the technical specialist was French.

  7. #367
    I believe in my predictions Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Since there seems to be interest in which countries were actually represented by the judges with "Russian-sounding names," here they are:

    Balkov -- Ukraine
    Kulik -- Estonia
    Shekhovtsova -- Russia
    Domansk -- Slovakia

    Technical controler: Lakernik -- Russia
    Assistant technical specialist: Baranova -- Finland

    The other judges represented Germany, Italy, France, Japan, and Canada, and the technical specialist was French.
    I am not sure Ukraine as well as other former Soviet countries prefer Russians that much. My coaches are Ukraine and they’re not that in love with the Russian.
    And blaming people for their Russian-sounding names is a bit funny. Why don’t they do some research on history of languages first?

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    B/S were great and artistic but I don’t think they were balletic.
    I have found (by reading this board for the last twenty years ) that figure skating fans often use the word "balletic" to mean any sort of more or less graceful movement. This drives real ballet fans crazy.

    Likewise "artistic" often just means "pleasing to the eye." Mavins of the fine arts (musicians, for instance) have a fit. "You call that artistic?!"

    To me, its all good.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    You don't? I will try to be more clear. I was trying to explain why many skating fans in the West still get nervous, even in this day and age, when they see judging panels with a lot of Eastern European countries represented. To be sure, people all over the world might have Russian-sounding names -- there are millions in the United Staes alone.

    As for the "cold war narrative," this was indeed a huge deal in all Olympic sports. In 1980 the USA boycotted the Moscow summer games because we were mad at Russia. In 1984 the Soviet Union boycotted the Los Angeles games just to get even. In figure skating, bloc judging along ideological lines became so bad that the entire Soviet skating federation was banned from judging any ISU skating event for a year. This was regarded as a much bigger deal than just "how many European nations are represented."
    My point is that some people judge current FS world by that narrative. Because they still use it, they can observe things totally wrong. My other point about names should explain that. If you tried to understand my posts about names you should come to conclusion how for example Domanska (from Slovakia) has nothing to do with Russian names or Russia. Its just wrong to observe in that way and than claim it have. E: same thing is to claim that my name must have some deep connection with Russia, but the truth is, it just doesn't (except its a name in use in Russia too).

  10. #370
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    I am not sure Ukraine as well as other former Soviet countries prefer Russians that much.
    But Yuri Balkov does. I don't know about Zanna Kulik of Estonia or Adriana Domanska of Slovakia.

    My coaches are Ukraine and they’re not that in love with the Russian.
    Time marches on. The Russian influence on the figure skating world of Eastern Europe has diminished with new circumstances.

    And blaming people for their Russian-sounding names is a bit funny. Why don’t they do some research on history of languages first?
    I don't think anyone is blaming people for their names. After all, the first skater to be credited with a quad Lutz was an American named Brandon Mroz (Morosov).

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