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## CoP question: two-foots

Maybe this has been answered already, but I am trying to get more of the details of the CoP straight in my mind before the season begins.

If a skater does a quad, completes the four rotations, but two-foots the landing, does that count as a quad with a negative GoE? Or is it only a triple, possibly still with a GoE deduction for the landing?

If Michael Weiss does his patented double-footed quad Lutz early in the season, will he get credit for being the first man to do this jump, albeit with a GoE deduction?

Mathman

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Originally Posted by Mathman
Maybe this has been answered already, but I am trying to get more of the details of the CoP straight in my mind before the season begins.

If a skater does a quad, completes the four rotations, but two-foots the landing, does that count as a quad with a negative GoE? Or is it only a triple, possibly still with a GoE deduction for the landing?
As long as it is rotated for 3.75 revolutions, it is a quad. A two-foot is a mandatory -2 levels of GOE off the total score.

Since a +2 GOE requires "good or very good technique and execution in all phases of the jump," he could not start at +2 before the -2 deduction. Scored properly, the highest total value for Weiss' quad would be

+1 (good technique on at least three phases of the jump described in base value)
-2 (land on two feet)
------------
-1

But he could also score -2 or -3 if any of the other three phases were mediocre or bad or he had a touchdown, rotated between 3.75 and 3.99 revolutions, fell, landed on his toes, etc.

Originally Posted by Mathman
If Michael Weiss does his patented double-footed quad Lutz early in the season, will he get credit for being the first man to do this jump, albeit with a GoE deduction?
Mathman
I don't know if being certified as a first requires a clean landing, although it will show up in the skater's detailed score as a 4 Lutz.

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This should help Weiss get some credit for the attempt. He more often than not makes the rotations before he dbl fts them. However, his form is generally so so for me. I don't see a +1 on technique.

Aside from Weiss, I would like to see anyone's quad that is only rotated 3-3/4 and get full credit, then a) lands it with poor technque and another b) dbl fts it with good technique. Just to see how the judges GoE them by comparison.

Joe

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Originally Posted by Joesitz
Aside from Weiss, I would like to see anyone's quad that is only rotated 3-3/4 and get full credit, then a) lands it with poor technque and another b) dbl fts it with good technique. Just to see how the judges GoE them by comparison.
It probably wouldn't be called as a quad then if it's rotated less than 3.75. It would be a triple with the mentioned deductions and probably would get no higher than base.

TV

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Originally Posted by thvudragon
It probably wouldn't be called as a quad then if it's rotated less than 3.75. It would be a triple with the mentioned deductions and probably would get no higher than base.

TV
ITA thvudragon. It is a mistake. I remember once Amber Corwin attempted the triple flip at Nebelhorn last year (the first CoP competition ever), and she cheated the rotations, and dbl footed it- the judges nailed her by saying she performed a bad double with a two foot!

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Originally Posted by thvudragon
It probably wouldn't be called as a quad then if it's rotated less than 3.75. It would be a triple with the mentioned deductions and probably would get no higher than base.TV
Thvudragon - When I said 3-3/4, I meant 3.75. I think these numbers are the same. Am I correct? My questiion is if a skater lands a quad and the rotation is (using either of the aforementioned numbers) then how does that compare with another skater who completes 4 rotations in the air and lands it with 2 feet?

Yes, both skaters will have GoE's in the minuses but which is the more severe error? or will they both get the same GoE?

Amber Corwin's error is not what my question is all about.

Joe

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Originally Posted by Joesitz
Thvudragon - When I said 3-3/4, I meant 3.75. I think these numbers are the same. Am I correct? My questiion is if a skater lands a quad and the rotation is (using either of the aforementioned numbers) then how does that compare with another skater who completes 4 rotations in the air and lands it with 2 feet?

Yes, both skaters will have GoE's in the minuses but which is the more severe error? or will they both get the same GoE?

It all depends on how well the jump is performed. Lets just say theoretically that both jumps had all their phases before the landing performed well. This first would garner a +1 before deductions. It would go as the following.

Underrotated by 1/4.
+1 for good in all but 1 phase of the jump.
-2 for the underrotated by 1/4.
The final GoE would be -1

Two-footed
+1 for good in all but 1 phase of the jump.
-2 for the landing on two feet.
The final GoE would be -1.

Basically, the outcome is the same with the deductions being equal. Of course, these mistakes could lead to others in the same jump.

TV

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Thvudragon - I like your rationale. It seems logical. I wonder if the judges would come up with that? Anyway,

Let's say Weiss rotates 4 air turns in the his quad (good position) but double foots the landing.

Let's say Weir does the perfect Triple Axel.

What will the scores be for each?

I'm thinking it may be worth it for any skater to throw in a quad if he can make the air rotations. (Just a thought).

Joe

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Originally Posted by Joesitz
Thvudragon - I like your rationale. It seems logical. I wonder if the judges would come up with that?
lol, the rules actually dictate this. It blatantly says that this is the way that judges should come up with the GoE.

Originally Posted by Joesitz
Let's say Weiss rotates 4 air turns in the his quad (good position) but double foots the landing.

Let's say Weir does the perfect Triple Axel.

What will the scores be for each?

I'm thinking it may be worth it for any skater to throw in a quad if he can make the air rotations. (Just a thought).
Weiss: 4toe with two foot. (and most likely an inside edge landing, but you didn't mention that)
Base
-2 for the two foot landing.
Total GoE, -2
9 - 2 = 7

Weir: 3axel with his usual nice flowing landing.
+2 for being good or very good in all phases. No deductions.
7.5 + 2 = 9.5

So Weir gets more points for his good 3axel than Weiss and his poor quad toe.
TV

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Hmm. But if the judges think that Weir's Axel was only just "good" in all phases (+1 GoE) instead of "very good" (+2) then its Michael who gets the gold.

I think we're in for a fun time once the CoP scores start coming in for real. Men's gymnastics anyone?

Mathman :o

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Originally Posted by Mathman
Hmm. But if the judges think that Weir's Axel was only just "good" in all phases (+1 GoE) instead of "very good" (+2) then its Michael who gets the gold.
No, for solo jumps, +2 is just good or very good in all phases. He is, IMO, at least good in all phases, although I would deem the jump "very good".

TV

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I don't think most fans will care one way or the other about the fine art of CoP judging. They just want to know who won. But there are some fans like us who will be furious about those pluses and minuses. It's that nitpicking that gets us riled up.

Joe

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