What is Eteri's secret?

vorravorra · Sep 7, 2017

andromache said:
Survival of the fittest, sink or swim, etc. If you're weak, you leave. It's the same system Soviet pairs skaters had, and in other Soviet sports during the Cold War era, now being applied to ladies in this one coach's rink. Eteri uses the state-funded system to its maximum potential, whereas other top Russian coaches have, at least in the past few decades, tended more towards smaller camps with more individualized treatment (thinking now of Moskvina and Mishin).

This, in combination with Eteri's maximization of the system as CanadianSkaterGuy already described above, makes it happen. You can be a points genius all you want, but if you're coaching in the US or Canada, you won't have the dozens of children whose families can afford it (and who you as a coach can afford to turn away if they sink instead of swim) with grit + talent to fill your rink.

Eteri's system doesn't work with men because men take more time to cultivate, and Eteri just flat-out doesn't have patience for it. Girls mentally mature faster. For whatever reason (it would be interesting if someone can explain why), younger-than-senior boys are just plain not capable of hitting level 4s on their steps and spins, whereas for girls it is necessary to win, as well as to make it in Eteri's camp. Junior men look awkward and sloppy, but junior girls are tiny and fast and confident - they hit those levels, even if they look sloppy or awkward doing it.

I think if Eteri had more patience she could make her system work for boys.

I believe there is also a physical issue with boys, though you could attribute it to lack of patience as well in a way. Eteri's method is if a skater makes a mistake on a jump, they get to repeat it over and over till they get it right. It seems that once it comes to boys and quads, this stands a good chance of overloading one's back. The load requires a more careful dosing and distribution. Eteri also seems to prefer making skaters work really hard on jumps on the ice to more intensive off-ice training. Which also might not be as well-suited to boys and quads.

Blades of Passion · Sep 7, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
Not sure what about Medvedeva it is that rubs you the wrong way, but she fixed most of her flaws on her jumps

No she hasn't. She flutzes, her toeloops are very cheated on the entrances (and it only got worse last season), and her axels are too small.

tjb said:
karen chen has perfect jumps and she never underrotates, according to this guy.

I've never said that, stop your misinformation right now. Karen does indeed have better technique however. Her jumps all get great amplitude and she never pre-rotates the entrances (more than what is considered textbook technique).

Grin said:
It is a third time I have to remind on this very forum about Daria Panenkova
https://youtu.be/KW_gONBSO10

And what about Polina Tsurkaya? She is tall. Her jumps seem clean as a whistle to me
https://youtu.be/HuO1TWFUXAs

Daria's jumps are pre-rotated and not special at all in terms of getting lift. Look at the feet closely on the takeoffs. She swings around the toepick on the ice, making the jumps easier. Tsurkaya has better technique but still not ideal, she wrenches her upper body into the jump rather then first jumping and then rotating, and there's a bit of extra swing on the toeloop too. It's especially noticeable in her Long Program.

samkrut@mail.ru · Sep 7, 2017

Grin said:
It is a third time I have to remind on this very forum about Daria Panenkova

Yes, she is with Eteri since childhood and her lutz is I would argue the best among the current skaters. But "the analysts" who write long posts just dismiss this and keep referring to Yuna who stopped skating several years ago.

tjb · Sep 7, 2017

[email protected] said:
Yes, she is with Eteri since childhood and her lutz is I would argue the best among the current skaters. But "the analysts" who write long posts just dismiss this and keep referring to Yuna who stopped skating several years ago.

trusova's lutz is better i will say
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPu7oHiB_G0/?hl=en&taken-by=team_tutberidze

puremagic · Sep 7, 2017

tjb said:
trusova's lutz is better i will say
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPu7oHiB_G0/?hl=en&taken-by=team_tutberidze

Looks like she has enough time in the air, to do a quad jump. I also remember someone here said that she started to learn quad lutz. But for now I expect from her at least one clean quad sal. Because (as I already said) I didn't see any video where she did it clean and fully rotated (unlike Anna). May be she is just not ready to do it clean. Sure, even with UR it's a good boost. But people expect to see the clean jumps.

samkrut@mail.ru · Sep 7, 2017

tjb said:
trusova's lutz is better i will say
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPu7oHiB_G0/?hl=en&taken-by=team_tutberidze

There used to be people who measure height and distance of the jumps. I would still say that Dasha's lutz is bigger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW_gONBSO10&t=3m54s

liv · Sep 7, 2017

Yeah, sink or swim in a highly competitive atmosphere is the big one here. The kids work hard, no question.... and the group definitely maxes out on points...

While I think the success is amazing, I am excited to see such good young skaters, I also find myself a bit underwhelmed now. What I mean is... having watched Medvedeva for a couple of years, Zagitova, and now all these juniors so far I am struck by how similar they all are. Soon, there are going to be girls all from the same group, with the almost exact same skills, all on the senior stage (assuming puberty doesnt affect them too much). Med is a bit older so has the senior realm to herself for now, but the juniors...Beyond the similar jumping styles (with some exceptions), they all do tanos and rippons, backloading, connecting steps, spin positions... even their in betweens and step sequences are similar, even if the music is vastly different. I just wonder if and when any of these girls will leave because they need to separate themselves from the others....

noidont · Sep 7, 2017

Who here doesn't think Gubanova and Fedickina have much more enjoyable programs and better performance ability/quality than all of the Eteri skaters on jgp? Why is this never reflected in scores? This extends also to the Evgenia/Carolina Kostner PCS conundrum. Is there any point at all to skate a program, or do you automatically get high PCS if you can land all your tano/rippon triples in the second half? This is a philosophical question the judges really need to think about. It is called Program Components Score after all. I don't agree with the judges always scoring Eteri's skaters high in TR. Sure they have a lot of transitions in and out of elements, but that should be a GOE bullet point. In terms of any of Eteri's programs actually transitioning from not jumping to jumping we have certainly never seen less smug efforts.
I will be anxiously waiting for the PCS of Panenkova's god awful FS. If that beats Fedickina again there is no hope.

tjb · Sep 7, 2017

puremagic said:
Looks like she has enough time in the air, to do a quad jump. I also remember someone here said that she started to learn quad lutz. But for now I expect from her at least one clean quad sal. Because (as I already said) I didn't see any video where she did it clean and fully rotated (unlike Anna). May be she is just not ready to do it clean. Sure, even with UR it's a good boost. But people expect to see the clean jumps.

anna was learning 4Lz according to daniil, sasha are in the process with 4S and 3A

Grin · Sep 7, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
Daria's jumps are pre-rotated and not special at all in terms of getting lift. Look at the feet closely on the takeoffs. She swings around the toepick on the ice, making the jumps easier. Tsurkaya has better technique but still not ideal, she wrenches her upper body into the jump rather then first jumping and then rotating, and there's a bit of extra swing on the toeloop too. It's especially noticeable in her Long Program.

I was referring to their constitution, they definitely don't go with the concept of Eteri "small girls" standard, do they?
And you can't say that all her girls have bad technic. Tsurskaya in my opinion is miles and miles ahead of any US or Canadian top ladies OGM contender. Will you call her an exception to the rule?

samkrut@mail.ru · Sep 7, 2017

I enjoyed Tarakanova's programs. Trusova's are quite good. Last year Tsurskaya's SP was a masterpiece. Saying that "Gubanova and Fedickina have much more enjoyable programs and better performance ability/quality all of the Eteri skaters on jgp" is just another form of trying to bite Eteri who has been tremendously successful.

I was always a supporter of Fedichkina. I think she was destroyed by the judges last year in Japan when she received for a clean SP 1.8 points lower pcs than Kaori and 1 point lower than Mako Yamashita who was even less convincing then than she is now. That was a big injustice but it had nothing to do with Eteri. But now, come on. She is only 0.5 points under Panenkova who is faster and more athletic. And although people disagree I would argue that Rika deserved her high pcs for the qualities she demonstrated.

Another big injustice was low pcs score for Gubanova who is no less beautiful skater than Kihira but who was not pushed up like the Japanese. Again, if Eteri has anything to do with it is the possibility that the judges do not want to make it "the Russians only" show and treat any Russian who make mistakes harsher than the rest. Including Gubanova, who is indeed a very special skater.

Blades of Passion · Sep 7, 2017

[email protected] said:
Daria Panenkova is with Eteri since childhood and her lutz is I would argue the best among the current skaters. But "the analysts" who write long posts just dismiss this and keep referring to Yuna who stopped skating several years ago.

Her lutz is nowhere close to the best among current skaters. She has a shallow outside edge, pre-rotates a half turn on the jump, and does not get the same amplitude as someone like Chen or Daleman. And what does Yu-Na not skating anymore have to do with the FACTS of superior jump technique/quality (which she notable displayed on many jumps)? When benchmarks in history are made, you don't ignore them simply because the person is not around anymore. There are many examples of amazing lutzes in skating history too, Yu-Na's isn't even the biggest out there, but what she did was combine it with 3Toe combinations so wonderfully.

tjb said:
trusova's lutz is better i will say
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPu7oHiB_G0/?hl=en&taken-by=team_tutberidze

puremagic said:
Looks like she has enough time in the air, to do a quad jump.

??? This lutz is not big at all. Also again a half-turn on the entrance, it isn't ideal technique.

Grin said:
Tsurskaya in my opinion is miles and miles ahead of any US or Canadian top ladies OGM contender.

Highly disagreed. On what basis to do you hold this opinion? She even finished 10th at Junior Worlds, LOL. That does not show her being ahead in the least. Perhaps you can say before her injury she was showing more consistency, but that's exactly what I've been talking about the whole time - these Russian girls use ways to cheat aspects of the jumps, such that they gain consistency at the cost of quality. In addition to the things I already talked about above with her jumps, Tsurskaya's landings are not all the way backwards and she lands with a noticeable clunk on many of them. She twists her upper body into the jumps, rather than purely jumping them.

tjb · Sep 7, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
??? This lutz is not big at all. Also again a half-turn on the entrance, it isn't ideal technique.

this lutz (the first one) is about 60-62 cm high (i.e. this lutz is among the highest of the lutzes any lady ever jumped), not speaking of a rippon variation. but you such a technical specialist that you probably dont even aware about that fact that jumps with arms above the head are lower than normal jumps.
but yeah, sasha can't even dream about amazing technique of karen chen, ashley wagner, kaetlyn osomnd and other ladys, who underrotating half of their jumps. keep on going

twirlingblades · Sep 7, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
??? This lutz is not big at all. Also again a half-turn on the entrance, it isn't ideal technique.

I mean... jumps can have 1/4 to 1/2 rotation before you fully take off. Jumps don't take off backwards. Ideally it should be closer to 1/4, but as long as a triple has 2.5 rotations in the air and a clean landing then there's no technical issues.

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 7, 2017

twirlingblades said:
I mean... jumps can have 1/4 to 1/2 rotation before you fully take off. Jumps don't take off backwards. Ideally it should be closer to 1/4, but as long as a triple has 2.5 rotations in the air and a clean landing then there's no technical issues.

The ISU really needs to specifically address and identify this explicitly in the rules but still give the judges the call on the ice. I don't even think they really discuss the degrees of rotation whether pre or post air time in their Guidelines. I wonder if they enjoy watching fans come to discussion boards and duke it out. :laugh:

twirlingblades · Sep 7, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
The ISU really needs to specifically address and identify this explicitly in the rules but still give the judges the call on the ice. I don't even think they really discuss the degrees of rotation whether pre or post air time in their Guidelines. I wonder if they enjoy watching fans come to discussion boards and duke it out.

I think pre-rotation is so hard to judge and honestly pretty arbitrary. I don't think pre-rotation is a much as a problem as people on this site make it out to be. I've been competitively skating for 15 years and my coach almost never mentioned pre-rotation outside of a "don't take off backwards or you'll have no arc" context (and he never used the word "pre-rotation"). Having more consistent judging regarding underrotations is way more important imo.

Blades of Passion · Sep 7, 2017

tjb said:
this lutz is among the highest of the lutzes any lady ever jumped

I have no idea where you get that idea, but the clip posted of Trusova's lutz is nowhere close to the highest a lady has ever jumped. Nowhere close. It's average in size, with arms over the head. Look at Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, and Julia Sebestyen for examples of the highest lutzes ever.

twirlingblades said:
I mean... jumps can have 1/4 to 1/2 rotation before you fully take

Yes of course, but doing a full 1/2 turn is not the ideal technique for a lutz or flip. It factually makes the jumps easier to do them that way. As such, it should be reflected in GOE - they should never be getting +3's for jumping like this.

twirlingblades said:
I think pre-rotation is so hard to judge and honestly pretty arbitrary

It's not hard to judge, you can see it, especially the difference between a textbook takeoff and swingier takeoffs. It's not arbitrary at all, because it changes the jump. If someone is competing in a 5 mile race and is given a pass to start at the 1 mile mark instead of the beginning of the 5 miles, it's quite a significant advantage, wouldn't you say?

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 7, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
Yes of course, but doing a full 1/2 turn is not the ideal technique for a lutz or flip. It factually makes the jumps easier to do them that way. As such, it should be reflected in GOE - they should never be getting +3's for jumping like this.

Ive made quite a few videos highlighting jump take offs and landings and I found in my limited experience and of the few skaters I've done this with that the jumpers doing the most pre rotating on edge jumps were actually North American. Ashley and Kaetlyn to be more specific. I only say this because it seems to me that this thread is beginning to suggest that Eteri is some type of pioneer in teaching this technique.

Zhenia 3f-3t

Kaetlyn 3lz

Ashley and Pogo

Again...id like to reiterate that I'm not picking on anyone here. What I notice is that in general on the 3t that the skaters are picking in at 90 degrees and then rotate just shy of 180 degrees from that point at takeoff. Ashley on her 3z is past 180 degrees with her body at takeoff as is Kaetlyn. I'm just trying to show that this is not something that Eteri created.

tjb · Sep 7, 2017

Blades of Passion said:
I have no idea where you get that idea, but the clip posted of Trusova's lutz is nowhere close to the highest a lady has ever jumped. Nowhere close. It's average in size, with arms over the head. Look at Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, and Julia Sebestyen for examples of the highest lutzes ever.

i didn't say the highest of all time, but among the highest. of course noone gets close to midori ito's gigantic 70-75 cm high jumps, not even majority of the men. but with the arms above the head sasha has a tuktamysheva's and tsurskaya's sized lutz. her lutz are higher than those one's from any north american lady currently skating, daleman, osmond (those two doing only flutzes though) you name it.
it also higher than yuna kim's lutz which impresses you so much.
but yeah, it must be a horrible russian cheating technique with 3/4 prerotation or whatever, not a textbook karen chen's 3t

Blades of Passion · Sep 8, 2017

The lutz you posted from Trusova is not as big as Tuktamysheva's or Daleman's (and no she doesn't fluz, what are you talking about) or Miki Ando's or Chen's or Yu-na's. No amount of you repeating it will make it true. Please look at comparison videos if you still can't see it.

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'm just trying to show that this is not something that Eteri created.

Skaters doing this on their jumps is not something she created, but it IS something she is actively exploiting to the max. And it has become more widespread as a result of judges just accepting it. I'm not sure why you use Ashley Wagner as the example of "North Americans", considering she is one of the weaker technical skaters now, but Ashley has done jumps in the past (huge Triple Loops and sometimes Lutz/Flip) that are bigger than what the average Russian girl is doing now.

I also have no idea why you are saying Osmond goes past 180 degrees in her takeoff, she doesn't. Although yes she does use the half turn pre-rotation technique for the lutz and flip that has become very common. She jumps them very big, though, higher than what most of the Russian ladies are doing now.

What is Eteri's secret?

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tjb

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puremagic

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