I agree that S/M need to improve their throws, but these statements aren't very true. What is this beautiful throw 3S you speak of...they two foot it at least 2/3 of the time (probably more?). They need to work on ALL throws. And the twist fact is the opposite...S/M pretty much always get a level 3 on the twist with rare level 4s and 2s. Look at the protocols.
2018 Olympic Season: Pairs Figure Skating
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I agree that S/M need to improve their throws, but these statements aren't very true. What is this beautiful throw 3S you speak of...they two foot it at least 2/3 of the time (probably more?). They need to work on ALL throws. And the twist fact is the opposite...S/M pretty much always get a level 3 on the twist with rare level 4s and 2s. Look at the protocols.
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well ... here is the throw...
and what i mean by saying they rarely get level 3... i also include 4 in there of course.. I may be wrong but for me it was 3tw2 that i recalled seeing on protocols... including last year's worlds in the LP.
in any case, that 3s throw, high and with a lot of distance is certainly worth more than a botched throw 3a... just saying
They got level 3 at nebelhorn and euros, and level 2 at both gps last season and the worlds. I'd say they get 2s and 3s pretty evenly.
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It’s big but still give me unsafe feelings. I don’t think they will ever be stable at throws. She’s at that age already.
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Fair enough... but then my point is that they should use the salchow instead of the 3a... which would make it a tad safer.
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I think pretty much everyone agrees that S/M should stop trying out their luck with that 3A. She never has a good landing with that throw.
Well yeah the beautiful 3STh exists but certainly isn't consistent--they always have it in the free and have two footed it in most of their appearances. A 3STh with two foot is pretty much the same value as a 3ATh fall. The falls don't seem to be hurting their PCS too much, either. The twist yeah they get more 2s than 4s but they still average a level 3...
Anyways I think the fundamental problem is changing their throw technique since I think Aliona isn't used to being thrown so hard when she was with Robin.
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^^ well sorry.. but there are some pairs who have been together forever...but some just like S/M have been training since 2015... for instance I/M... and their throws are fantastic and have been for a long time. Also, incredibly different techniques there as Lubov has mentioned on the twist as well... After so many years, one would expect to see one foot landings on S/M throws. And as a fan of the sport, not just one or two teams here, I find it very unfair that whatever happens on their throw is not affecting their scores. We all know that if Lubov falls on her SBS, they are out of the picture instantly... and when Meagan fell on the 3A, it would also derail their PCS.... this is exactly the kind of thing that can ruin it for everyone..
in any case, I will let the judges do their thing... but as far as I am concerned, they should aim to land a good 3S throw and not count on judges bailing them out.
in any case, I will let the judges do their thing... but as far as I am concerned, they should aim to land a good 3S throw and not count on judges bailing them out.
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How many clean throw we have seen from S/M ever since they start competing?
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Honestly, aside from the one I posted above and that is gorgeous, I don't know... I'd have to go through protocols but yeah... not many... and for sure the 3A was never clean unless I am being extremely forgetful.
What I'm saying is, if being clean is their goal...they should do a throw double axel and throw double flip. Those are the most difficult throws they can land consistently. But that won't happen. The goal is to maximize points, and they probably think their current layout maximizes the points potential they need. They probably are banking on the fact that a two foot won't cost them too many points compared to simplifying the jump type. Even though they know they are going to two foot or fall, it's still more points than doing an easier jump (2ATh) or another jump that poses almost as many problems (3FTh, 3STh)
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Their weak landings cost them WC title last season I doubt they don't see that while everyone under the sun can. I think S/M should just do 3S throw and 2A throw. It is not like they're going to skate clean all the time with that anyway.
Yeah weak landings cost them, but had they done a 3STh and 2ATh instead of 3ATh at WC last year, they would have lost by way more. Their 3ATh weren't clean but got more points than any alternate jump they could've done. So that's where I think they are coming from.
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well.... 5.56 is what they got for the botched 3a in the short... S/H got 7.8 for their 3flip...
a good 3s (s/h in the lp) is 6.2....
fine, S/M got 7.41 in the long for their 3a..but many thought it was overscored. they got 3.9 for their 3s....
at nebelhorn, their 3a throw fall only earned them 3.7 (including the fall)
they did the 3sth in the lp... for 4.3....
One thing to consider though is that for Olympics, clean programs will be factored as better.... and perhaps, finally, judges will take off marks on PCS as well if they have messy landings or falls. It looks to me that they have ditched their 3fl throw completely.... however, I am suspicious about that... is the 3A really a better idea than the 3F? Should they play safe and just go for a 3S in the short as it will most likely always get them around 4 points??? I don't know but it seems to me that falling in the SP could really hurt their chances.
As for comparing S/M's axel scores to S/H's scores...that's a horrible comparison because S/M can't do a 7.8 scoring flip or 6.2 salchow...only shows that S/M have poor throws. 5.56 is more than THEY usually get for their throw salchow. 7.41 vs. 3.9...hm seems like axel got more than 3S there... 3.7 vs 4.3 indicates that even when the axel is totally botched it isn't much worse than the salchow.
Say they did a 3STh in the short and got 4 points (vs 5.56). And a 2ATh in the long and got 5 points (vs.7.41). They would be 4 points worse off.
I agree too that clean programs should be rewarded but there's no reason the scoring will be any different. I mean I agree, honestly I would rather see a 2ATh clean than a 3ATh fall, but if I were their coach I would tell them to keep the axel as a triple. Now if they had as good a flip or salchow as S/H I wouldn't...
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3A throw risk the potential of injury.
Yeah, of course, that's the nature of the game...
Interesting how there are double standards...recently on a thread about Duhamel/Radford when they kept on falling on the 3ATh instead of blaming them for sticking with the jump everyone was like we should boost the value of 3ATh, they put in so much good work and weren't rewarded etc, blah blah...we need to progress the technical difficulty of the sport...
Now it's like it's Savchenko/Massot's fault they're doing the 3ATh...for those of you who wanted to boost the value of such jumps...there will be more teams doing it and perhaps doing it even though they know they can't do it well. You can't have it both ways
And yes for the record Duhamel/radford did switch over but again it's a fallacy to compare for different teams...D/R have a somewhat consistent 3LzTh, S/M don't have any consistent throw triples.
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At least D/R can do clean triple and quad throw quite often.
S/M don’t.
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actually, if i recall, we complained about the low value of the throw quads... and some of us aren't as worried about D/R for injury on throw because they have a much different technique.... where it's more of an assisted jump rather than a long arching throw ...
I think 3ATh was lumped in there too. And it really doesn't matter if D/R get injured or not ...the base value issue is for all teams... Regardless of 3A or quad the concept is the same...if you raise the base value of the quad there will be more teams doing it even if they haven't mastered it because they know they won't lose too many points even if they mess up. So you either want higher BV and more teams trying hard tricks that they might not be able to do or lower BV and teams sticking to what they can do well.
