2018 Olympic Season: Pairs Figure Skating

bobbob said:

Interesting how there are double standards...recently on a thread about Duhamel/Radford when they kept on falling on the 3ATh instead of blaming them for sticking with the jump everyone was like we should boost the value of 3ATh, they put in so much good work and weren't rewarded etc, blah blah...we need to progress the technical difficulty of the sport...

Now it's like it's Savchenko/Massot's fault they're doing the 3ATh...for those of you who wanted to boost the value of such jumps...there will be more teams doing it and perhaps doing it even though they know they can't do it well. You can't have it both ways

And yes for the record Duhamel/radford did switch over but again it's a fallacy to compare for different teams...D/R have a somewhat consistent 3LzTh, S/M don't have any consistent throw triples.

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And that's a good enough reason, in itself, for S/M to try for more BV in throws.

If I'm not mistaken, D/R speak to the media more than most pairs in such cases, when they feel their efforts aren't being sufficiently rewarded. Just an impression.

bobbob said:

I think 3ATh was lumped in there too. And it really doesn't matter if D/R get injured or not ...the base value issue is for all teams... Regardless of 3A or quad the concept is the same...if you raise the base value of the quad there will be more teams doing it even if they haven't mastered it because they know they won't lose too many points even if they mess up. So you either want higher BV and more teams trying hard tricks that they might not be able to do or lower BV and teams sticking to what they can do well.

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Right. As much as I want to see quality rewarded, this year the rules are set. Next year, some re-thinking maybe ....

Alexa and Chris said something interesting about their 4twist. Because the timing is different, once they were doing the quad, the 3twist timing was a challenge, for the SP. It may be that they just needed more time with both jumps under their belt, training both consistently. Last year they had to drop the 4Twist because of Alexa's illness. Meagan and Eric said something similar, IIRC, about training a more difficult jump/throw and retaining the first. Not sure which jump.

slightly tangential but not entirely OT (to me): Adam said when he first learned the Rippon 3Lz, it threw his technique off for the regular 3Lz. But rather than making all his lutzes with both arms overhead, he kept training and performing both variations over the years. So the ideas of balance in programs and other aesthetic values like deciding which one works with the music and choreography, still can be held up.

In my opinion, Aliona and Bruno are doing so much innovative choreography, along with other ways that they create beauty in their skating, that's also going to affect the perception of the judges even if it's not as measurable.

^^ it was quad lutz throw

Cheng Peng and Yan Jin are one of my absolutely favorite pairs, and this week-end in their SP at Finlandia they demonstrated why.

They delivered the most exquisite "Assassin's Tango" that I've ever seen. Lori Nichols was inspired. Cheng and Yan are spot on to the split second, with their head movements, their perfect timing of dramatic moves with a dramatic beat in the music, and with the playful quality of their relationship. They get the adversarial Mr and Mrs. just right. Also, when the music pauses or slows slightly, they are making the most of those very slight one or two seconds of tempo variation, to create subtlety and emotion. They show their musicality. They look directly into each others' eyes, great connection.

Here it is, a total delight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BJN9CiAMxI&t=215s

skylark said:

Cheng Peng and Yan Jin are one of my absolutely favorite pairs, and this week-end in their SP at Finlandia they demonstrated why.

They delivered the most exquisite "Assassin's Tango" that I've ever seen. Lori Nichols was inspired. Cheng and Yan are spot on to the split second, with their head movements, their perfect timing of dramatic moves with a dramatic beat in the music, and with the playful quality of their relationship. They get the adversarial Mr and Mrs. just right. Also, when the music pauses or slows slightly, they are making the most of those very slight one or two seconds of tempo variation, to create subtlety and emotion. They show their musicality. They look directly into each others' eyes, great connection.

Here it is, a total delight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BJN9CiAMxI&t=215s

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I will never truly be over yu/jin's forced split(well, sad for her), but I'm delighted for these two. I hope they can make a run for the podium, but like others mentioned, I wonder if their chinese #2/#3 status puts them at a disadvantage.

s_parks said:

I will never truly be over yu/jin's forced split(well, sad for her), but I'm delighted for these two. I hope they can make a run for the podium, but like others mentioned, I wonder if their chinese #2/#3 status puts them at a disadvantage.

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That darn pecking order. I suppose you're right, but I'm going to look on the bright side. They're young and if they stay healthy they may be delighting us for years to come. And this year, I get to look forward to seeing this delightful program again and again, including at the Olympics, where they could make a good impact whether they challenge for the podium or not. I like their FS also, it's a great contrast showing their versatility. They made a couple of uncharacteristic mistakes on it at FT, but it's lovely.

I realized while I was swimming laps that after Lori choreographed Gracie's Assassin's Tango SP, she probably had this great inspiration. IMO the music works better with a pair anyway, and it's just brilliant.

I agree with many user about the S/M's 3ATh story and their throws in general. I do not think their PCS are too high. But they could be way more ahead with another strategy.

In 2016 they should have kept on practicing the 3FTh and 3STh with focussing on an insane 4Tw4.

But Aljona will know on her own what to do. Their coach said that their 3ATh success rate during practices is 80%. I cannot believe that. But we do not know.

One more point. Aljona has never lost Gold only because of the 3ATh. She and Robin lost it 2013 because of the SBS jumps, 2014 because the the gold was for Russia and 2017 with Bruno because of small mistakes.

^^ i am not sure about PCS... I think judges only look at one partner here... and i dislike it since so many times I heard " Eric is a much better skater than Meagan" and they got penalized ... but that rule doesn't work for Bruno? I like him but not his skating... he has improved a lot but wow...

Since I am mentioning skating skills : James Cipres also have a lot to do here...

In the end, it goes unnoticed but Meagan has improved a lot.. their new SP really shows both of them as great skaters...


However, I am not a judge... I can though say that from seeing D/R already a few times live, they are uber fast and skate very well and most of the time, in perfect synch...

4everchan said:

In the end, it goes unnoticed but Meagan has improved a lot.. their new SP really shows both of them as great skaters...
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I disagree that it goes unnoticed. I've read many posts in various threads where people noticed and gave praise for the new qualities in D/R current SP.

skylark said:

I disagree that it goes unnoticed. I've read many posts in various threads where people noticed and gave praise for the new qualities in D/R current SP.

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unnoticed in scoring... gs is one thing... judges another

4everchan said:

unnoticed in scoring... gs is one thing... judges another

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oh, I see what you mean. I don't pay enough attention to D/R scores to know, so I yield to your knowledge of that.

QuadThrow said:

I agree with many user about the S/M's 3ATh story and their throws in general. I do not think their PCS are too high. But they could be way more ahead with another strategy.

In 2016 they should have kept on practicing the 3FTh and 3STh with focussing on an insane 4Tw4.

But Aljona will know on her own what to do. Their coach said that their 3ATh success rate during practices is 80%. I cannot believe that. But we do not know.

One more point. Aljona has never lost Gold only because of the 3ATh. She and Robin lost it 2013 because of the SBS jumps, 2014 because the the gold was for Russia and 2017 with Bruno because of small mistakes.

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Excuse me, but are you implying that Aliona and Robin were robbed in 2014 in favor of the Russians? I know that it is tempting to re-write history, and the more you repeat it, the more believable it starts to sound to you, but some of us actually remember what happened. Wait a few more years at least

eli60056 said:

Excuse me, but are you implying that Aliona and Robin were robbed in 2014 in favor of the Russians? I know that it is tempting to re-write history, and the more you repeat it, the more believable it starts to sound to you, but some of us actually remember what happened. Wait a few more years at least

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I still know exactly what happend in sochi and 2013/2014. S/S fell twice and lost the silver. But my point is that the Germans never had a chance for Gold. V/T got insane high marks with plenty of 10.00s for a middle-class FS. You can see that they simplified it after their unbelieveable bad skate at Europeans (which was also totally overscored). S/K showed the best skate at this night and V/M were overscored the whole season.

I have no problem with them as the Olympic Champions. But the way they got it still makes me said. Even if S/S had skated totally clean there would have never been any doubt about the Gold for V/M.

QuadThrow said:

I still know exactly what happend in sochi and 2013/2014. S/S fell twice and lost the silver. But my point is that the Germans never had a chance for Gold. V/T got insane high marks with plenty of 10.00s for a middle-class FS. You can see that they simplified it after their unbelieveable bad skate at Europeans (which was also totally overscored). S/K showed the best skate at this night and V/M were overscored the whole season.

I have no problem with them as the Olympic Champions. But the way they got it still makes me said. Even if S/S had skated totally clean there would have never been any doubt about the Gold for V/M.

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Don't you mean V/T?

4everchan said:

^^ i am not sure about PCS... I think judges only look at one partner here... and i dislike it since so many times I heard " Eric is a much better skater than Meagan" and they got penalized ... but that rule doesn't work for Bruno? I like him but not his skating... he has improved a lot but wow...

Since I am mentioning skating skills : James Cipres also have a lot to do here...

In the end, it goes unnoticed but Meagan has improved a lot.. their new SP really shows both of them as great skaters...


However, I am not a judge... I can though say that from seeing D/R already a few times live, they are uber fast and skate very well and most of the time, in perfect synch...

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I believe that their improvement will not get overlooked if they stay this way At Autumn Classic I noticed better jumps, unison & connection, their SBS Triple Lutzes in SP in perfect synch are so awesome when they nail it as like they did there

nocturnalis said:

Don't you mean V/T?

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of course I did. sorry

andromache said:

S/M's LP is a masterpiece. Better than last season, as there are no pretenses at over-acted romance. And sooooo much innovation!!!!!

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Who choreographed it? I saw many of what I'd considered "ice dance moves", and I like those moves a lot. I'm scared for Aliona's ankles though, that 3A was thrown with a ton of force!

andromache said:

God willing, S/H's LP will be re-worked into a masterpiece. Their team (unlike Mozer, apparently) is SMART. Get a new LP or re-work Turandot.

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I hope they get a new LP. Reworked or not, it's basically impossible for them to capture the magic of Shen+Zhao's 2003 Worlds FS - even if S/H has better elements or execution overall.

Maybe they can rework last season's programs instead. In fact, reuse both SP/FS. I was completely SOLD on both Blues and Bridge upon first viewing.. something I couldn't even say about Hanyu's Seimei.

andromache said:

T/M's LP is a joke. A beautiful, quality pair saddled with their worst program yet. But they keep getting the scores, so who cares?

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Sigh. Wish Mama Moskvina would step in and say 'Enough is enough!' and hand them a program this pair deserves. Even a 90's-era Moskvina program would be 10x better than what they have now.

I've been rooting so very hard for Sui & Han, and I LOVE this season's short, but their free program does absolutely nothing for me. I'm hoping they were simply playing tribute to Shen & Zhao at that competition, and/or that it was a fake-out program etc, and they secretly have something magical they've been working on. If they keep that program, I wouldn't be surprised if another pair finish above them in the free if all skate clean at the olympics).

Now that all the top pairs have had at least one major competition, here are some of my suggestions for each team.

Sui/Han: Soild start, again the SBS triple salchow seems to be the only issue and I recommend them switch it out for a SBS 2A, which they seemed to land pretty frequently at the junior level but haven't been doing much of recently. They may need it if S/M or T/M go clean. Other than that, I think they adapted Turandot well with great choreo and skating, still not my favorite program but their PCS at COC showed the judges have no problems with the program.

Savchenko/Massot: Excellent programs and pair elements, but Bruno needs to work on his SBS, and the throws still need to gain consistency. Their PCS are not invincible so they need to start skating more cleanly if they want a shot at gold...if S/H start skating cleaning for the next few competitions while S/M continue making major mistakes, there may be a PCS gap in S/H's favor come the Olympics.

Taraova/Morosov: Their programs are not exactly the best this season, but their PCS are going through the roof and have been higher than S/M this season, so the judges don't seem to care. I do think their high PCS have to do with them being Russian, if they were Chinese their PCS would be no higher than Yu/Zhang's. They haven't shown as high a ceiling as S/H or S/M, but they are definitely more consistent than S/M and nipping on the heels of both teams. If they go clean and say S/H fall on their SBS, they may win.

Yu/Zhang: Their PCS seems to be hindered by the fact that they come from the same country as S/H. Programs are well skated but they need to emote more if they want to boost the component scores. I don't really see them as a podium threat but they have really soild elements and might finish in the 4th-6th positions.

Stolbova/Klimov: They need to get all their elements together. Throws show improvement in consistency but twist is still achilles heel and SBS aren't too cisistent either. If they don't get more consistent quickly, the judges will drop them while continuing to boost T/M.

Duhamel/Radford: They are skating better than they were last season, and the short program is a highlight but the long program is as messy as ever (it seemed to get even worse at Skate Canada program wise, to the point where it is a watered down version of their 14-15 prorgam). My honest suggestion for them is to keep the short and change the long to else new (and let John Kerr, not Julie Marcotte choreograph it--Kerr's single program was better than anything Marcotte could do in >5 years), or adapt the short to become their free and use their short from the 14-15 season, which worked really well for them.

James/Cipres: They are also trending upwards though they likely will depend on mistakes from others to medal.

gsk8 said:

Would like to hear from everyone on what they feel are positive qualities of the teams! :clapper:

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gsk8 said:

Which teams are you rooting for this season?

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I'm rooting for Kirsten Moore-Towers / Michael Marinaro. I think they've made great strides in the last months; it really became evident at CoC but in early comps too. Along with Haven Denney / Brandon Frazier's ... I simply adore Kirsten's long, confident running edges out of jumps and throws. I like their attention to the beautiful visual experience that those long running edges create. It also gives assurance to viewers, and evidence of solid technique. Quality is valued over the risk of a higher scoring element.

M-T/ M could climb up steadily in the rankings, but that's not what interests me most. I like their vision of pairs skating. I see evidence that Michael is more stable on the lifts, although I realize many disagree. And since there's always the conversation about which 3 Canadian pairs will go to the olympics, I'll say here that I like to watch M-T/M skate more than I do I/M, and I'd like to see them make the team. I'm not fond of Lubov's rag doll look in air positions. But I like Dylan and Lubov, and it seems they really found their groove and their audience last summer, and they look forward to pursuing that, although of course they're going forward to fight for a place in Pyongchang, and good for them. I/M did say their season's goals were to win nationals and make the Olympic team.

What is Tamara Moskvina doing this season? With the retirement decision by Kavaguti/Smirnov, I don't know if she has a team that will have her at the Olympics yet again as a coach. If not, I will certaintly miss her presence this season.