'Radical change' could be on the way

Neenah16 · Sep 11, 2017

How is this a solution to the problem? they are practically running away from facing it :disapp:

The changes for the GOE I agree with, especially making it a percentage rather than a fixed number. I am also on board with cutting a jumping pass, but the rest does not make much sense to me. If you want quality then just reward quality and punish mistakes sufficiently, it is not rocket science :noshake:

Tahuu · Sep 11, 2017

The good:

1. Expand GOE range from 3-3 to 5-5.

2. Link GOE to its base value.

3. Replace SP/FS with Artistic P/Athletic P.

The bad:

1. Reduce the BV of quads. Because of quads, men's figure skating is the most exciting and popular discipline ever. See how their Olympic tickets are gone the first minute of on sales.

2. Over-reduce the BVs of 4F/4Lz. All GP men can do 3A, 25% can do 4T or 4S, but only 1-2 men can consistently do a true 4F or 4Lz. That indicates the difficulty of these jumps.

3. Reduce TES to increase the weight of subjective PCS. It's ludicrous to think PCS value should be made equal to TES. The technical difficulty has progressed and can continue to progress but artistic expression in skating cannot equally progress. Is it justice to punish the men/women who push the sport forward by reducing TES and artificially inflating PCS?

gmyers · Sep 11, 2017

Only thing that makes sense is return to 6.0. People have nostalgia for it.

padme21 · Sep 11, 2017

I'm not a fan of having an artistic program and a technical program. I think if that happens we will see fewer and fewer complete skaters like Chan, Fernandez, and Hanyu. Why focus on being a complete skater when you can win with just artistry or technical content? It would be advantageous for skaters like Jason Brown and Adam Rippon who are more artistic than technical. Plus fans would then have to decide what programs they'd rather watch technical or artistic. And one program would become inevitably more popular than the other and the other program would probably be done away with completely. In my opinion figure skating should stay the way it is at the most they can revise the point system again like they do in gymnastics.

andromache · Sep 11, 2017

NaVi said:
This will only work if they go all the way...

1. Perform under show lighting.

4. Ordinals with Literate judging... i.e., judges should articulate why they're judging in a certain way.

Am I the only one who thinks show lighting ALWAYS looks like garbage? No thanks.

Literate judging is my favorite thing. An impossible idea that would never work out, but still my favorite thing.

Tahuu said:
3. Reduce TES to increase the weight of subjective PCS. It's ludicrous to think PCS value should be made equal to TES. The technical difficulty has progressed and can continue to progress but artistic expression in skating cannot equally progress. Is it justice to punish the men/women who push the sport forward by reducing TES and artificially inflating PCS?

Historically, "artistry" always kept up alongside "technical difficulty" due to how the scoring system operated. When Dick Button started doing 2As, artistry was still worth the same technical difficulty, and it's not as if he was punished because of it.

As for "artificially inflating" PCS - the idea that artistry is finite and can be measured on a scale with a limited ceiling is artificial. Measuring and quantifying artistry based on a numeric scale is inherently artificial. But that is what IJS does. (And the idea that artistic expression is incapable of progress seems unfair, FWIW.)

Spirals for Miles · Sep 11, 2017

padme21 said:
I'm not a fan of having an artistic program and a technical program. I think if that happens we will see fewer and fewer complete skaters like Chan, Fernandez, and Hanyu. Why focus on being a complete skater when you can win with just artistry or technical content? It would be advantageous for skaters like Jason Brown and Adam Rippon who are more artistic than technical. Plus fans would then have to decide what programs they'd rather watch technical or artistic. And one program would become inevitably more popular than the other and the other program would probably be done away with completely. In my opinion figure skating should stay the way it is at the most they can revise the point system again like they do in gymnastics.

Oh my goodness! Literally, am I a clone of you or something?? There's no way I could have said it this well but those were my EXACT THOUGHTS

:dance2:

Bluediamonds09 · Sep 11, 2017

As I read on twitter just now: they can change the technical side all the want; they still aren't changing the easy-to-cheat way of judging pcs???? Um, what?

Tulipstar · Sep 11, 2017

padme21 said:
I'm not a fan of having an artistic program and a technical program. I think if that happens we will see fewer and fewer complete skaters like Chan, Fernandez, and Hanyu. Why focus on being a complete skater when you can win with just artistry or technical content? It would be advantageous for skaters like Jason Brown and Adam Rippon who are more artistic than technical. Plus fans would then have to decide what programs they'd rather watch technical or artistic. And one program would become inevitably more popular than the other and the other program would probably be done away with completely. In my opinion figure skating should stay the way it is at the most they can revise the point system again like they do in gymnastics.

Exactly. If there would be artistic programs, would that even still be accepted as a sport?

padme21 · Sep 11, 2017

Spirals for Miles said:
Oh my goodness! Literally, am I a clone of you or something?? There's no way I could have said it this well but those were my EXACT THOUGHTS :dance2:

Great minds think alike!

friedbanana · Sep 11, 2017

whatif · Sep 11, 2017

These proposals make no sense. The desperation is real.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Sep 11, 2017

andromache said:
I think increasing the value of the quad twist could be a fair compromise, as I don't think it has the injury record of quad throws.

I was literally just about to comment that if a quad throw is getting reduced, then why not a quad twist? If throws go down, twists should too.

I highly disagree with a quad twist getting more marks, as some teams clearly benefit from strong throws and others strong twists. We've certainly seen a fair share of injuries/falls on twist elements too.

If the purpose is to reduce injuries, why not just have everyone do doubles and call it day? Why have axel lasso lifts (see: Totmianina) be worth so much or why should SBS camel spins (see: Jessica Dube) be worth as much as they are when accidents and injuries happen on those?

andromache · Sep 11, 2017

Tulipstar said:
Exactly. If there would be artistic programs, would that even still be accepted as a sport?

Taking this logic to its furthest extent, should the artistic aspect of figure skating be eliminated entirely?

I agree that a certain type of artistic program would no longer be a sport at all, but I also think an "artistic program" with athletic components that are still evaluated and weighed could still constitute a sport.

For example, I like the idea of a long program with, say, 5 jumping passes that are evaluated and scored per COP, and spins and steps that do not adhere to COP (no more ugly spins designed to maximize point value, and we can again have marvelous step sequences like Alexei Yagudin's in his Winter SP). That said, artistic evaluation will always be very problematic.

Nika09 · Sep 11, 2017

It's ridiculous! I can imagine "all athletic" program of Figure Skating and also "all artistic" program. It will be like what? jumping with background music one and some ice dance another?
And how it's gonna work with Pairs discipline? Because we have also Ice Dance already. And it all will be as subjective as never was.

They can do it more objective by increasing PCS scores or by putting them in more free position from TES etc, but maybe that isn't what they needed

Bluediamonds09 said:
As I read on twitter just now: they can change the technical side all the want; they still aren't changing the easy-to-cheat way of judging pcs???? Um, what?

This! It's the main and only way to stabilize everything. Otherwise every change will lead to subjectivity and "over/underscored" issues inevitably.

P.S.

andromache said:
Am I the only one who thinks show lighting ALWAYS looks like garbage? No thanks.

I hate show lighting. Thanks to it I've never really get into EX programs.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Sep 11, 2017

gmyers said:
Only thing that makes sense is return to 6.0. People have nostalgia for it.

Yeah... especially the judges, who can place skaters wherever they want and just subjectively give 2 marks as such... instead of being compelled to consider each element.

The skaters would love it too! They can go back to doing easy combination spins with 6 rotations in basic positions. :sarcasm:

Tahuu · Sep 11, 2017

Do you think the % value of PCS should be the same with respect to TES in the 2A era and the 4A era? A reasonable and intelligent person would say no. There is no logic in saying because the artistic value was about the same to the technical value in the 2A era so it has to be the same in the 4A era.

The fact is figure skating has progressed significantly in technical difficulty but you can't say its artistic aspect has progressed or has room to progress as much. To make PCS close to TES by reducing BV and increasing PCS factoring is artificial.

Mango · Sep 11, 2017

I don't think it's fair to attribute injuries in pairs just to quad throws. Not all injured teams are even training quad throws. To cite Canadian pairs as an example we've had pairs out due to concussions and injuries from botched twists. And not all throw quads are two-footed. We even have pairs two-footing triple throws so should we start significantly reducing the value of those as well? I'm sure all the top junior and senior pairs teams could get by on spectacularly non-two-footed throw doubles...not that they would ever willingly want to take the points hit for that.

I would suggest if the ISU is so concerned about the weight of TES vs. PCS they should use a factor of 0.5 for each. But that's more a band-aid solution.

The ISU needs input from athletes, coaches, and medical professionals who work with figure skaters to decide how best to reform scoring and points.

Eclair · Sep 11, 2017

This separation of athletic and artistic is taking away the incentive to be athletic AND artistic.

What is killing the sport is the dubious and biased PCS and GOE judging for uninteresting programs.

Why is there no proposal to punish backloading and excessive tanoing? Ladies PCS judging is totally off, but instead they target men's??

xeyra · Sep 11, 2017

Eclair said:
Why is there no proposal to punish backloading and excessive tanoing? Ladies PCS judging is totally off, but instead they target men's??

Because it were the men who broke their system. They must be punished! :dev2:

gmyers · Sep 11, 2017

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Yeah... especially the judges, who can place skaters wherever they want and just subjectively give 2 marks as such... instead of being compelled to consider each element.

The skaters would love it too! They can go back to doing easy combination spins with 6 rotations in basic positions. :sarcasm:

Those spins could be stunning and artistic! Not like the cirque du Soleil contortions done now!

'Radical change' could be on the way

Neenah16

Tahuu

gmyers

padme21

andromache

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

Bluediamonds09

Tulipstar

padme21

friedbanana

End Turandot!

whatif

CanadianSkaterGuy

andromache

Nika09

CanadianSkaterGuy

Tahuu

Mango

Royal Chinet 👑🍽️

Eclair

xeyra

Constant state

gmyers

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